And the end of Labour, so the Tories will have no credible opposition until UKIP gain seats
Off Topic EU deabte. Which way are you voting ?
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And the end of Labour, so the Tories will have no credible opposition until UKIP gain seats
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As you foresaw, I disagree
I find it weird that a leader who has shown massive support from the public, who have come in their hundreds of thousands to pay £3 to become affiliate members to support him, he's united the majority of Labour Members to back him (he would have won the leadership contest without the £3 vote - so the 'he only won because of Tories and far-lefts paying £3' is balls).
People are sick with the blatantly false austerity argument, it has failed - or at least failed the majority - and across the world there is a huge, and growing, anti-austerity feeling. See the popularity of candidates across Europe and the US in particular who operate from a anti-austerity platform, offering to give the public more say in politics and it is hugely popular.
Corbyn is anti-austerity and his renationalisation policies are polled to appeal to UKIP supporters. Party membership is growing inspite of the smear campaign against him - indeed over 60,000 people have joined the Labour party recently. More people voted for Corbyn than are members of both the Lib Dems and Conservative parties combined!
To replace him with another Tory-lite, austerity-lite figure at a time when people are calling out for 1) a true alternative and an anti-establishment figure (see popularity of Bernie Sanders, Corbyn, Trump, Farage, Podemos, Greens in Austria and others) are 2) calling out for an end to Austerity an end to punishing the poor to reward the bankers and millionaires 3) (particularly in the Labour party) want more say in how politics is carried out in their name - Corbyn has promised to enable the CLP to 'de-select' MPs if they aren't working on their constituents behalf.
To go from this to another figure similar to Brown, Milliband, Yvette Cooper, Burnham, Kendall ect - careerist, self-serving politicians who will stand on a Tory-lite platform to appeal to the 25% of the electorate who voted Tory will ignore the huge swarths of the country looking for something different, it'll further alienate the 35% who didn't vote and increase the defection and shrinking of the Labour party we've seen between 1997 and 2015 when Corbyn came in and dramatically reversed the trend. You'll end up with masses of people voting Green, SNP, Plaid, even perhaps Lib Dem (on a pro-EU ticket) as they will over a difference from the interchangeable Blue-Labour/Tory narrative and with an even worse performance than Milliband experienced.
It seems ridiculous to assume that the only way to win an election is to not offer an actual opposition, but to mirror the other parties policies and to appeal to the same voters that vote for your opposition - instead of appealing to the 40 constituencies in Scotland, the people who previously voted Lib Dem in 2010, the people who voted UKIP for independence and may feel they don't need to vote UKIP anymore. Rather than take the Milliband and Harriet Harman approach of either supporting Tory policy or abstaining from it. And never fighting the ridiculous assertion that the global recession was caused by Labour or that austerity would make the country more prosperous!
One last thought before I end this essay/rant (apologies). It is definitely not Corbyn who is splitting this party - he has been voting in by the overwhelming majority of members, he has the support of the overwhelming majority of members, he has the support of the overwhelming majority of CLPs across the country. It is the Blairitie MPs who, since day one have attacked him rather than the Tory party, resigned at key times, staged coup after coup, tried to split the party, and are now trying to tear the party to pieces against the party members wishes, despite Corbyn offering them key positions in the cabinet.
Well put, mate. And I respect your argument even though I still disagree with you.
In my view, the Labour Party is fractured. I also believe that with Corbyn at the helm those fractures will never be healed. In fact they will widen.
My view remains that for the good of the party he should step aside for somebody who has a chance of bringing together the warring factions.
And, I maintain my view that his support base amongst the general electorate is far to narrow to win a GE.
You can have all the good intentions and principles in the world, as a politician. But, if you are not in power you cannot implement your policies.,
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Rather like the EU, the remain voters don't believe in democracy. Oh no, they are much happier slagging off the elderly for their right to vote for the leave campaign. They won't accept the result and are campaigning for another referendum.
They also claim to be the intelligent voters
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Corbyn is not a person who looks to lead MPs. He prefers to stand in front of a crowd of people who have very little power. He doesn't care what the MPs think of him he will be adored when he goes to meetings and that's all he's bothered about. He sees no reason to stand aside.
Farage is an absolute legend and without doubt, the best politician in my lifetime.
Fair enough I appreciate talking to people who make well reasoned arguments and while I disagree with you I can see where you are coming from. In much the same way as while I disagree with almost everything aftcw says about the EU/British politics but he makes well reasoned arguments and you can have a good sensible discussion/debate with him.
As you foresaw, I disagree
I find it weird that a leader who has shown massive support from the public, who have come in their hundreds of thousands to pay £3 to become affiliate members to support him, he's united the majority of Labour Members to back him (he would have won the leadership contest without the £3 vote - so the 'he only won because of Tories and far-lefts paying £3' is balls).
People are sick with the blatantly false austerity argument, it has failed - or at least failed the majority - and across the world there is a huge, and growing, anti-austerity feeling. See the popularity of candidates across Europe and the US in particular who operate from a anti-austerity platform, offering to give the public more say in politics and it is hugely popular.
Corbyn is anti-austerity and his renationalisation policies are polled to appeal to UKIP supporters. Party membership is growing inspite of the smear campaign against him - indeed over 60,000 people have joined the Labour party recently. More people voted for Corbyn than are members of both the Lib Dems and Conservative parties combined!
To replace him with another Tory-lite, austerity-lite figure at a time when people are calling out for 1) a true alternative and an anti-establishment figure (see popularity of Bernie Sanders, Corbyn, Trump, Farage, Podemos, Greens in Austria and others) are 2) calling out for an end to Austerity an end to punishing the poor to reward the bankers and millionaires 3) (particularly in the Labour party) want more say in how politics is carried out in their name - Corbyn has promised to enable the CLP to 'de-select' MPs if they aren't working on their constituents behalf.
To go from this to another figure similar to Brown, Milliband, Yvette Cooper, Burnham, Kendall ect - careerist, self-serving politicians who will stand on a Tory-lite platform to appeal to the 25% of the electorate who voted Tory will ignore the huge swarths of the country looking for something different, it'll further alienate the 35% who didn't vote and increase the defection and shrinking of the Labour party we've seen between 1997 and 2015 when Corbyn came in and dramatically reversed the trend. You'll end up with masses of people voting Green, SNP, Plaid, even perhaps Lib Dem (on a pro-EU ticket) as they will over a difference from the interchangeable Blue-Labour/Tory narrative and with an even worse performance than Milliband experienced.
It seems ridiculous to assume that the only way to win an election is to not offer an actual opposition, but to mirror the other parties policies and to appeal to the same voters that vote for your opposition - instead of appealing to the 40 constituencies in Scotland, the people who previously voted Lib Dem in 2010, the people who voted UKIP for independence and may feel they don't need to vote UKIP anymore. Rather than take the Milliband and Harriet Harman approach of either supporting Tory policy or abstaining from it. And never fighting the ridiculous assertion that the global recession was caused by Labour or that austerity would make the country more prosperous!
One last thought before I end this essay/rant (apologies). It is definitely not Corbyn who is splitting this party - he has been voting in by the overwhelming majority of members, he has the support of the overwhelming majority of members, he has the support of the overwhelming majority of CLPs across the country. It is the Blairitie MPs who, since day one have attacked him rather than the Tory party, resigned at key times, staged coup after coup, tried to split the party, and are now trying to tear the party to pieces against the party members wishes, despite Corbyn offering them key positions in the cabinet.
Okay, in a nutshell, do you believe the country would elect Corbyn to the position of Prime Minister?
Total rubbish. He's a man who has campaigned and helped force through change in the House on apartheid, LGBT rights, Ireland peace process negotiations ect. He has pushed for positive change.
Do you believe that big issues should split political parties, rather than removing the leader who embodies the hopes and beliefs of those who voted for him?
I don't think it has to be a choice between one or the other. Power at the expense of principles is pointless. Ironically it's primarily the reason why Labour are where they are.
I don't think they'd elect him if he was stuck in a giant nutshell no!
But yes I do think he'd win an election - certainly the only Labour candidate who has a chance. My only issue is that no leader has been elected in the last 30 years without the backing of Murdoch and the main papers and they are all staunchly right wing/neo-liberal. So there's only two ways around it 1) accept that the Tories are going to win and have an even worse version of the 80s. I say this as its been proved that when Labour go right wing to appeal to the press/Tory supporters they lose huge numbers of their core support (see Scotland - lost 40 out of 41 seats, Wales have lost a large number of seats to UKIP and Plaid and Tories), also why vote for Tory-lite when you can have the real thing by voting Tory? So this plan didn't work in 2010 and 2015, in fact it was disastrous!
The only other way I see around it is with a strong, democratic, grassroots movement - ala Bernie Sanders and Podemos which will inspire the populace and drive home a strong anti-austerity message. It's already working for corbyn. Unheard numbers of people are flocking to the Labour party and joining the membership - 360k at last count. He's got the backing of the unions and other left parties. There is talks of the SNP, Plaid, Greens, SWP and others including even the Lib Dems uniting behind him to form a sort of coalition. There's massive rallies across the country in support of him (see Momentum) which is unheard of in levels of support for a leader - usually they get booed.
So in short (but not in a nutshell) I do think he can get elected.
Lots of people campaign but he's not been a leader of any of the campaigns. He's more of a shouty person from the sides.
While Corbyn is leader of the Labour Party they will continue to be a mess of a party.
What a surprise, we disagree again. He lead many of those campaigns and was hugely influential in their success (at least from a British politics point of view). He did much more than just 'stand in front of crowds and shout'. Maybe it's just you don't know much about him....
But I'm happy, as I said before, to disagree with someone who thinks Gove is a man of the people who did a good job in Education. No point arguing about it.
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