Off Topic Politics Thread

[ImpSaint]

Not sure what you mean by the second point, but the French have been using their resources (and possibly EU resources) to deal with the situation in Calais to assist a EU partner (the UK). Why should they continue to do that? I hope they do, but understand their stance. Of all EU nations, the French do things for themselves more than any other, so I'm not at all surprised.


Forget the rights and wrongs, what really pisses me off about all this, is the lack of a plan. We have known that a referendum was on the table for a long time, so why has no plan being considered. It is what I haven't liked about this whole referendum. I was asked to vote on something that I could only see one side of. It has been amateurishness and embarrassing. It would not have been difficult to lay out plans for say 10 key topics. Immigration should have been one of those topics as it was so high profile in the Leave campaign.

What I am expecting to hear now as a citizen of this country, is one of the key Leave leaders to step forward today and tell us that they expected this stance from the French and what the plan they have in a drawer is to deal with this key topic. It is what they wanted and so they must have a plan.

If they don't, then it underlines the fact this has all been a game for them. A game played with real lives and our futures.

I think the problem is that the media like BBC and CH4 have turned politics into a charade and a Soap Opera ever Since the days of New Labour.

If anyone really thinks that there is no plan they need to get a grip. The civil service will have several contingency plans. That is their job. Politicans steer the political juggernaut in a direction but it is the civil service that implement these plans and they do not wait for politicians statement before making those plans. These plans are like flowcharts and when a politician decides a direction then the flowchart goes that way.

It isn't that we have a plan and it isn't that Boris or Gove or whoever else was not telling us. It is not their plan. The civil service will be waiting for the PM to come to them and set the wheels in motion on a direction on their "flowchart". The problem is that this country's media are now portraying this as politicians need to get it sorted to jump over to Brussels and start negotiating when in reality that is so far from the truth. Any number of politicians from all sides could easily get into a room with the civil servants, look at the options that will undoubtedly have been drawn up in the event of Brexit (and there will be any number of different approaches been drawn up) and decide on an avenue. Then ask the PM to put his seal on it and a team of experts and civil servants (these are the real in the know negotiators) can get to work with someone like Francis Maude who knows the EU very well as a figurehead. It does not need nor should it be a PM going off and negotiating.

This process needs to be started now and the media needs to stop pushing the "ooh exciting intrigue and personality clashes" stuff that they are absolutely loving and cheering along. This is serious stuff yet the media are still treating it as if it is the latest episode of Eastenders.

 

[Beef]

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Needs updating already, Seema has gone apparently.

 

[AL.]

Needs updating already, Seema has gone apparently.

Charlie Falconer must be next, surely. The guy used to be Blair's flat mate.

 

[ImpSaint]

Beddytare, then why are you continually having a go about us "blaming Brexit" at every opportunity? You can't expect those of us (nearly half the voters) to wake up the next day, pat the winners on the back and say, "Well done, right lets get on with it"

Today's discussion isn't about different views, the vote is over it's because you kept saying "oh that's right, blame everything on Brexit"

I can't change my mind overnight; my name is not Boris Johnson!

You are right FLT. All of what is happening is because of Brexit however that still does not mean that people should not have voted leave. Intelligent people are not more worthy than not so clever people and banking jobs are not more important than the masses of "junk" jobs that normal people have lost in the past decade+.

That is the problem because the people who lost these "junk" jobs have continually been cast aside and ignored and were now told that they must not vote leave because jobs will be lost. They had already lost their jobs and were now told that they should vote to remain to save jobs when in their experience the reverse had been true. That being in the club had lost jobs.

While we can all talk about ignorance or try and make it a spiteful "thickos" giving some revenge to the rest argument, this concern should not have been ignored and papered over or portrayed as racism because of the vocabulary used. There was a very real threat of UKIP building a huge support base which this referendum should have halted. The PLPs ridiculous belief even now that certain demographics are their property and that all they need to do is tell that demographic how to vote is what risks that chance to halt UKIP.

Believe me a UK in the EU in a decades time with a dominant UKIP voted in by normal people and the rest split between the other parties would be a lot lot worse than a Britain outside of the EU but with a stagnant UKIP stuck with just a few MPs (and yes they will still turn some of those 2nds into seats.)

I am no little Englander. My house was European yesterday we made a day of it. 3 Polish and 2 Portuguese. We watched the matches together. (admittedly my wife was only interested in the Portugal game.)

YES - SHANE LONG I have just cheered so loud as well as my sons. My Dad is Irish. I have been to Ireland several times. I have been to Portugal many many times. I am not your enemy. racists and bigots are your enemy and they will take advantage of people's concerns and they will become powerful on the back of jumping on those people's concerns.

SHANE LONG - YES

 

[ImpSaint]

Quite possibly, but remarkable if so.

Regardless of intention, Dave not triggering Article 50 means that Boris' time in Number 10 - which he's always wanted - isn't going to be the sort of legacy he would have ever wanted. If he gets there.

If Boris doesn't become PM it is nothing to do with Cameron messing it up for him. Camerons' threat to invoke article 50 when it was obvious he would be out was just that. a threat and if he had invoked it he would be destroying his own party.

If Boris does not make it to PM (and I have one of those votes) it will be because he underestimated just how much mud he would be covered in from this exercise and I am personally leading towards someone like David Davies or Liam Fox. Gove is very eloquent and would be a good PM but he has been too damaged as well for the top job.

 

[fatletiss]

An awful lot of people seem to equate an out vote with racism. Reductive thinking for people who cannot cope with the complexity of the situation, I suppose.

Facebook is full of people saying wanting to control your borders is racist. Well then, the EU is racist. India is racist. The U.S. Is racist. Ireland is racist. Nigeria is racist.

Scotland (net EU migration 8000 per year) and NI (2000) hinting that England (180000) is small-minded for having a concern. Reductive, ridiculous and increasingly boring arguments. You can't throw race at everything and make it go away.

As I said, I voted in, but only just. We can choose our next path, but if it is blindly labelling ordinary British people racist for simply wanting control of their borders (for me one of the less important factors) then what a horrible future we have.

FFS, will people stop saying that remain voters think leave voters are racists. Stop making sweeping judgements because of one or two individuals opinions. If you can't distinguish a few individuals from the majority then you are as bad as them.

It is not right.

 

[ImpSaint]

Surely you agree that Corbyn isn't the leader that Labour/the country needs to be an effective opposition and prospective government? He cannot lead. Good guy yes, good principles yes, but a leader? No, absolutely not.

I do agree that Corbyn isn't a leader and they should get rid of him but the party line of "he wasn't able to get the message out there" is complete nonsense. Didn't matter who Labour's leader was it wouldn't have changed things because Labour's policies are not what Labour's heartlands are feeling. It may be what the London centric Labour voters vote for but not the masses outside of London.

There is no problem then removing Corbyn now, but it will not change anything if they continue with their policies that are not vote winners in the working class heartlands. They should have learned this at the last election. UKIP are preying on these issues and Labour just ignore it thinking that they can "mobilise their heartlands". They may not be intellectuals but they are not sheep to be rounded up. They are voting on THE No1 issue that concerns them and that is being told that they have not lost the jobs that they did indeed lose.

This will be a very dangerous year for Britain in politics if they do not get their act together.

 

[fatletiss]

I think the problem is that the media like BBC and CH4 have turned politics into a charade and a Soap Opera ever Since the days of New Labour.

If anyone really thinks that there is no plan they need to get a grip. The civil service will have several contingency plans. That is their job. Politicans steer the political juggernaut in a direction but it is the civil service that implement these plans and they do not wait for politicians statement before making those plans. These plans are like flowcharts and when a politician decides a direction then the flowchart goes that way.

It isn't that we have a plan and it isn't that Boris or Gove or whoever else was not telling us. It is not their plan. The civil service will be waiting for the PM to come to them and set the wheels in motion on a direction on their "flowchart". The problem is that this country's media are now portraying this as politicians need to get it sorted to jump over to Brussels and start negotiating when in reality that is so far from the truth. Any number of politicians from all sides could easily get into a room with the civil servants, look at the options that will undoubtedly have been drawn up in the event of Brexit (and there will be any number of different approaches been drawn up) and decide on an avenue. Then ask the PM to put his seal on it and a team of experts and civil servants (these are the real in the know negotiators) can get to work with someone like Francis Maude who knows the EU very well as a figurehead. It does not need nor should it be a PM going off and negotiating.

This process needs to be started now and the media needs to stop pushing the "ooh exciting intrigue and personality clashes" stuff that they are absolutely loving and cheering along. This is serious stuff yet the media are still treating it as if it is the latest episode of Eastenders.

ImpSaint, you of all people after your emotional plea yesterday should be better than coming in here telling us to get a grip. That's pissed me off and you yourself have said how measured I've been.


I need to get a grip then because I haven't seen the plan. I didn't hear a single thing before hand about the plan and that is terrible. They asked me to make a vote without telling me the plan. Who is to say my vote may have been different if I'd known the plan, or part of it.

So if I can't listen to the news (well the channels you don't like) or read the papers (probably OK of its the ones who are pro this), what can I listen to and read?

 

[- Doing The Lambert Walk]

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[fatletiss]

You are right FLT. All of what is happening is because of Brexit however that still does not mean that people should not have voted leave. Intelligent people are not more worthy than not so clever people and banking jobs are not more important than the masses of "junk" jobs that normal people have lost in the past decade+.

That is the problem because the people who lost these "junk" jobs have continually been cast aside and ignored and were now told that they must not vote leave because jobs will be lost. They had already lost their jobs and were now told that they should vote to remain to save jobs when in their experience the reverse had been true. That being in the club had lost jobs.

While we can all talk about ignorance or try and make it a spiteful "thickos" giving some revenge to the rest argument, this concern should not have been ignored and papered over or portrayed as racism because of the vocabulary used. There was a very real threat of UKIP building a huge support base which this referendum should have halted. The PLPs ridiculous belief even now that certain demographics are their property and that all they need to do is tell that demographic how to vote is what risks that chance to halt UKIP.

Believe me a UK in the EU in a decades time with a dominant UKIP voted in by normal people and the rest split between the other parties would be a lot lot worse than a Britain outside of the EU but with a stagnant UKIP stuck with just a few MPs (and yes they will still turn some of those 2nds into seats.)

I am no little Englander. My house was European yesterday we made a day of it. 3 Polish and 2 Portuguese. We watched the matches together. (admittedly my wife was only interested in the Portugal game.)

YES - SHANE LONG I have just cheered so loud as well as my sons. My Dad is Irish. I have been to Ireland several times. I have been to Portugal many many times. I am not your enemy. racists and bigots are your enemy and they will take advantage of people's concerns and they will become powerful on the back of jumping on those people's concerns.

SHANE LONG - YES

I stopped reading after the first paragraph simply because you used my name and then followed it immediately with two things I hadn't said. That infers to anyone reading you are correcting my view and I have said those things. I didn't. I wish people wouldn't do that. You and other people need to stop doing that as it is appalling.

It is as if you know I voted remain and so you must know my opinions I the other things. The very thing you've all been Moaning about yourselves; sweeping generalisation.

 

[AL.]

I do agree that Corbyn isn't a leader and they should get rid of him but the party line of "he wasn't able to get the message out there" is complete nonsense. Didn't matter who Labour's leader was it wouldn't have changed things because Labour's policies are not what Labour's heartlands are feeling. It may be what the London centric Labour voters vote for but not the masses outside of London.

There is no problem then removing Corbyn now, but it will not change anything if they continue with their policies that are not vote winners in the working class heartlands. They should have learned this at the last election. UKIP are preying on these issues and Labour just ignore it thinking that they can "mobilise their heartlands". They may not be intellectuals but they are not sheep to be rounded up. They are voting on THE No1 issue that concerns them and that is being told that they have not lost the jobs that they did indeed lose.

This will be a very dangerous year for Britain in politics if they do not get their act together.

Agreed - only way they can unite is to start again with a new leader and supportive group of MPs. Corbyn has never had their support.

 

[Beddy]

I think both the main parties are in total disarray....there is no effectual labour leadership neither is there a tory one. If there had been who knows maybe the vote could have gone the other way. Mind you if you take away the scottish vote it is quite a large majority from England and Wales that voted to leave. I don't think the Scots have got any other choice but to go it alone if they want to remain in. Strange though if memory serves didn't they vote not to join in the 70's..........

 

[Number 1 Jasper]

I stopped reading after the first paragraph simply because you used my name and then followed it immediately with two things I hadn't said. That infers to anyone reading you are correcting my view and I have said those things. I didn't. I wish people wouldn't do that. You and other people need to stop doing that as it is appalling.

It is as if you know I voted remain and so you must know my opinions I the other things. The very thing you've all been Moaning about yourselves; sweeping generalisation.

Now there's a sweeping generalisation if ever I saw one .

 

[AL.]

I think both the main parties are in total disarray....there is no effectual labour leadership neither is there a tory one. If there had been who knows maybe the vote could have gone the other way. Mind you id you take away the scottish vote it is quite a large majority from England and Wales that voted to leave. I don't think the Scots have got another choice but to go it alone if they want to remain in. Strange though if memory serves didn't they vote not to join in the 70's..........

In truth though, as a Socialist, Labour voter, even I admit that there has been no Labour opposition for 9 months. Been zombie like in the Commons. This EU vote is the rather large straw that broke the camel's back. Labour MPs have to act now - especially if there is a General Election coming up soon.

 

[ImpSaint]

ImpSaint, you of all people after your emotional plea yesterday should be better than coming in here telling us to get a grip. That's pissed me off and you yourself have said how measured I've been.


I need to get a grip then because I haven't seen the plan. I didn't hear a single thing before hand about the plan and that is terrible. They asked me to make a vote without telling me the plan. Who is to say my vote may have been different if I'd known the plan, or part of it.

So if I can't listen to the news (well the channels you don't like) or read the papers (probably OK of its the ones who are pro this), what can I listen to and read?

Fair enough, I get you about saying get a grip.

I am just saying that people are asking for a plan from people who have not seen the plan. Cameron stopped his front bench from seeing EU related stuff as soon as he let them state their leaning. People do not have access to the contingencies that the civil service will have drawn up a long time ago. Cameron will have. People should have been asking those that have access to the civil service's EU related machinery.

I hope someone talks to the PM to nominate someone to do something so that the civil service can get the wheels in motion now and people can start looking at the contingency plan options that most definitely will be there sitting waiting and will have been for a long long time.

 

[Number 1 Jasper]

In truth though, as a Socialist, Labour voter, even I admit that there has been no Labour opposition for 9 months. Been zombie like in the Commons. This EU vote is the rather large straw hat broke the camel's back. Labour MPs have to act now - especially if there is a General Election coming up soon.

I agree , we have been almost non existent .

 

[fatletiss]

Fair enough, I get you about saying get a grip.

I am just saying that people are asking for a plan from people who have not seen the plan. Cameron stopped his front bench from seeing EU related stuff as soon as he let them state their leaning. People do not have access to the contingencies that the civil service will have drawn up a long time ago. Cameron will have. People should have been asking those that have access to the civil service's EU related machinery.

I hope someone talks to the PM to nominate someone to do something so that the civil service can get the wheels in motion now and people can start looking at the contingency plan options that most definitely will be there sitting waiting and will have been for a long long time.

So are you saying that the leaders of the Leave campaign had no thoughts about how they would tackle the key issues?

 

[......loading......]

FFS, will people stop saying that remain voters think leave voters are racists. Stop making sweeping judgements because of one or two individuals opinions. If you can't distinguish a few individuals from the majority then you are as bad as them.

It is not right.

I am not..I said a lot of people are saying. Please don't make sweeping statements about what you think are sweeping statements. I have a right to comment on what I have seen. As I said, mostly on Facebook.

 

[fatletiss]

Now there's a sweeping generalisation if ever I saw one .

Hardly an emotive one though

 

[fatletiss]

I am not..I said a lot of people are saying. Please don't make sweeping statements about what you think are sweeping statements. I have a right to comment on what I have seen. As I said, mostly on Facebook.

Ok fair enough. Apologies.