But had they laid out plans on those topics, Leave would not have won. The beauty of the incredibly vague way the issues were framed is that voters could envision their own plan and assume that is what would come to pass. It will be bizarre in a year or thereabouts, when the framework of Brexit becomes clearer, to see the reverse of the current situation: the leadership of the government pushing forward with a departure from the EU, with polls showing a large majority of the general public preferring to stay.
Have you guys seen this? This Guardian comment is fascinating. Has Cameron just snookered Boris? please log in to view this image So, in short: Dave has handed the baton on to whoever comes in, which as a result, will result in the whole Tory leadership campaign being focused around one question... "Are you going to trigger Article 50?" 1. If the leader wriggles or gets twitchy, they're ruined. 2. If the leader doesn't wriggle but doesn't activate it, they're ruined. 3. If the leader doesn't wriggle and does activate it, they're ruined for seeing the break-up of the union and the rough period that follows. Dave may well have just thrown the ultimate hot potato at Boris.
I'd guess you're upset then. Your post is slightly provocative I'd say, and labelling people ****tards, idiots and ****s isn't going to help matters in the slightest. If you expect us ****s and ****tards to engage in a debate then you haven't really thought about your post - if it was just an extremely petulant, toys out of the pram moment then get a ****ing grip and keep your vitriol to yourself...
An awful lot of people seem to equate an out vote with racism. Reductive thinking for people who cannot cope with the complexity of the situation, I suppose. Facebook is full of people saying wanting to control your borders is racist. Well then, the EU is racist. India is racist. The U.S. Is racist. Ireland is racist. Nigeria is racist. Scotland (net EU migration 8000 per year) and NI (2000) hinting that England (180000) is small-minded for having a concern. Reductive, ridiculous and increasingly boring arguments. You can't throw race at everything and make it go away. As I said, I voted in, but only just. We can choose our next path, but if it is blindly labelling ordinary British people racist for simply wanting control of their borders (for me one of the less important factors) then what a horrible future we have.
I disagree with Cameron's politics. I also think he's a complete nincompoop. But I don't think he's so evil he would purposely try to screw over the country (and destroy his political career) just to stick it to Boris. He did one thing right at the end which was to resign without invoking Article 50 and buy some time for the country. Although even then by doing so he broke his word, so that sucks. But I think it's still good. Everyone has an extra few months to let this all sink in and figure out if Brexit is really what they want, and if so, how they plan to do it.
Quite possibly, but remarkable if so. Regardless of intention, Dave not triggering Article 50 means that Boris' time in Number 10 - which he's always wanted - isn't going to be the sort of legacy he would have ever wanted. If he gets there.
It is odd that most of the vitriol is from people accusing others of being thick and unable to understand the issues. As you say it's a mighty complex issue which none of us will know what the ultimate fallout will be. I'm guessing everything from weather to sheep fertility rates will be blamed on us leaving, if any of the advantages become obvious it'll be 'in spite of'. I still feel the self serving politicians should take responsibility for calling the ruddy thing. Another small point. Anyone who voted Conservative at the last election really should think extra hard before going on a rant. It wasn't a secret that Cameron was promising this as a way to gain office. You helped vote Dave in so don't blame many who didn't for not getting what you want. Maybe it's a time for us all to take some responsibility and show maturity to make the most of the coming changes. I've also changed my mind, if calling others names becomes the basic content of this thread then shut it. Shame though.
Actually, it may yet work for him. Boris can allow someone else to take the job for this poison chalice, then take over in opposition after the next general election. The man's a nob, but he is a very astute politician. His bumbling facade has a lot of people fooled...
Yeah, I was thinking the same. He's a smart bloke, dangerously smart, but smart nonetheless. The front-runner doesn't always win a leadership election, either. Just look at the other rabble. Might be a case of the rope being thrown at Boris, but it being a case of when and perhaps - if he does allow someone else - if he uses it.
Cannot see Vernon Coaker, Andy Burnham or Chris Bryant staying. What a mess, but they are right to act now. EDIT: Burnham has backed Corbyn.
Just as a side note, incredible that 30% of Lib Dem voters at the last general election voted for Brexit.
This is why today could be the biggest disaster ever for the country because if the PLP continues on this mantra that "their voters" need to be told how to vote then we are in massive danger of UKIP converting all those Northern 2nd places into seats. This would be disaster and the PLP needs to wake up. This is not about Corbyn, it is about a Labour party that still thinks it just needs to walk around their traditional heartlands and tell people which way to vote. The politics of old where this group is left and this group is right disappeared the day Blair got into power. People do not choose a side and then adopt that sides party line anymore. They look at the party lines and then choose their side afterward. I do not want a UKIP opposition. Labour and their PLP have to get it together because this referendum should have put a halt to UKIPs progress.
Surely you agree that Corbyn isn't the leader that Labour/the country needs to be an effective opposition and prospective government? He cannot lead. Good guy yes, good principles yes, but a leader? No, absolutely not.
The French political classes are under severe pressure because their deficit is spiralling and they do not have the economy to sustain it. They have a President that was voted in on an anti-austerity mandate yet has had to ditch that line and try and save his country from bankruptcy. Germany is putting pressure on from the other side to try and force the austerity measures to be increased. They are in trouble and in danger of being the next country to need bailouts.
Doesn't matter who the PLP get in to be leader if they do not get into their heads that they will not win constituencies purely from Neo-Lib votes. They need to change their policies to appeal to working class heartland voters or UKIP will win those seats. What the Labour party does from now until the next GE which could be soon could turn into a huge disaster for anyone who isn't a true UKIPer and there aren't that many who really want to vote UKIP.
I think that you have unintentionally over-simplified the situation yourself. It was never just a simple "in" or "out" vote. There are larger political trends behind this, and fallout that goes well beyond just the simple issue of exiting the EU. It's Farage, Boris, the "Breaking Point" bus posters, and all of that. Maybe you don't think that stuff is racist. But I'm just saying that's all part of the package that people are taking into account. It's not just the vote but who is behind it and all the stuff leading up to it and all the stuff that might happen now because of it.
