Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

If you went to work in the US, would you not do so on a fixed term visa?

Yes, the US has a bewildering range of visas, including for seasonal agricultural work. What they are not so good at is tracking down 'overstayers'.

I turned down an opportunity to relocate there a few years ago, the arrangement would have been up to 5 years for immigration purposes (though my company would have capped it at 3, because of the expensive subsidies they pay international workers), after that you have to apply for a green card and transfer onto US terms and conditions. It didn't work for my family at the time, I'd jump at the chance now, but no longer on offer because I have shown I can do the job based in the UK. And I'm much cheaper being here and flying over 6-8 times a year. Though worse for the environment.

 

[sb_73]

This bloke has some interesting points about how we are affected by EU law and how we may have to go about disentangling ourselves from it.

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He's an expert and credible Strolls. Safe to ignore this elitist member of the establishment, he's only spent his entire professional career on this stuff, blokes down the pub know better.

 

[Supergod00]

Did he give any examples of the fabricated stories? Like you I rarely refer to the Telegraph.

Back at the bitchfest already. Michael Howard and Shirley Williams, elder statespeople we could fairly expect to be able to see both sides of an issue, on the radio this morning. Both started with the obligatory 'after the terrible events....we have to calm down' then both got rather hysterical, talking over each other, demanding more time to speak etc. To be fair Howard was marginally less hysterical and did make one very clear point (I wonder if this is a Leave strategy or just Howard talking) : there are only 3 facts (as opposed to speculation) that can be claimed, all in the event of leave -
- we will no longer need to pay our membership fees
- we will no longer have an open border to EU migrants
- we will no longer have to factor the European Court of Justice into our decision making
Of course the debate is about whether the consequences of these things would be good or bad. And the answer is 'a bit of both'. But this is a pretty clear and undeniable statement.

If I am offering Leave some positives, I should do the same for Remain. Much has been made of EU regulation. It is true that since 2008 we have voted against, and been out voted, 58 times (on issues that frankly are so technical most of us wouldn't understand or care about them), more than any other country. We have voted in favour of EU legislation over 2,200 times. So for all these laws presumably we would have created the same through Parliament without the EU. France takes a different approach - rather than vote against it abstains when it disagrees and knows it will be outvoted. And it does it much more often, as it is a dirigiste regime, and the EU is a free market one.

There are 3 areas where we would have significant leeway in making changes in terms of law if we leave:
- employment law - we already have the weakest/most 'free market' (depending on your perspective) in the EU
- environmental law - if our beaches are cleaner now than 20 years ago it is entirely due to EU law
- regulation of the financial sector - for those with short memories poor regulation of this charming and life affirming industry was partly responsible for the now 8 years of austerity we have been going through.

I am surprised more has not been made of this.

Finally, would this be a fair characterisation of the way the Leave campaign is now positioning itself?
- anti establishment/ elite
- pro ' working class British'
- anti big business, especially multinationals
- pro 'democracy'
Given the personal backgrounds of most of the leadership of the campaign, this is some trick to pull off.

Of your three pro leave points the only one you can be sure of is the European court of justice one. Norway have to pay huge fees for access to the single market and accept free movement on top of that, why would we get a deal that didn't include both? Especially considering we would have just given them the finger to leave!

 

[Supergod00]

If you went to work in the US, would you not do so on a fixed term visa?

Farms can need people at short notice often just for a few weeks, any visa system we have is bound to be complex and very unlikely to meet the needs, who's responsibility would it be for overstaying etc?

 

[rangercol]

Okay, (possibly) my last comment on this, as everyone is going round in circles.

I really dislike the overriding sarcasm and patronising attitude towards those that want to leave.
It's really weird, as the same people who want to remain part of an empire (the EU) are usually the same people who are so critical of all things Empire and our Colonial past.

 

[colognehornet]

Okay, (possibly) my last comment on this, as everyone is going round in circles.

I really dislike the overriding sarcasm and patronising attitude towards those that want to leave.
It's really weird, as the same people who want to remain part of an empire (the EU) are usually the same people who are so critical of all things Empire and our Colonial past.

It's a weird situation Col. This debate has thrown together many people who are strange bedfellows to each other....I never thought for one minute that I could be on the same side as Cameron and Osbourne on any debate this side of eternity. From a hard left perspective the EU. debate is difficult. If I thought for one minute that Britain, outside of the EU., would be a self sufficient, environmentally friendly, sovereign nation based on collective ownership (yes, I am one of them !), which could stick its fingers up to globalization (polite word for neo liberalism taking over the whole World), then I would whole heartedly support Brexit. But that is not the case - Britain outside, would either have to accept European terms in order to keep on trading (without voting powers) - or it would have to open itself up to the rest of the World TTIP and the rest of it, which would mean less sovereignty than we could have by staying in.

 

[sb_73]

Of your three pro leave points the only one you can be sure of is the European court of justice one. Norway have to pay huge fees for access to the single market and accept free movement on top of that, why would we get a deal that didn't include both? Especially considering we would have just given them the finger to leave!

It would be our choice in those circumstances, and in the event of a Brexit vote I think it would be a reasonable assumption that we would not wish to either fund the EU or have unrestricted migration from (and by extension to) it. I will vote Remain, but this is not a binary choice and either side immediately rubbishing whatever their opponents say is getting me down. I think Howard's statement was correct, though, as I said above, the consequences cut both ways.

Farms can need people at short notice often just for a few weeks, any visa system we have is bound to be complex and very unlikely to meet the needs, who's responsibility would it be for overstaying etc?

These things can be designed and implemented, with the costs being borne by employers, which might actually make them put up wages a bit and employ people already in the country.

The best thing to come out of this campaign is that I can see no way that Osborne can end up Tory leader, let alone PM. Sadly some of the other options are even worse.

Okay, (possibly) my last comment on this, as everyone is going round in circles.

I really dislike the overriding sarcasm and patronising attitude towards those that want to leave.
It's really weird, as the same people who want to remain part of an empire (the EU) are usually the same people who are so critical of all things Empire and our Colonial past.

And others really dislike the implication that if you vote to Remain you are somehow a traitor who wants to be ruled by foreigners and hates their own country. This is where we end up by oversimplifying complicated stuff, talking down to the electorate and specialising in the unmissed (by me) Vblockiains 'emotional' tactics.

 

[Sooperhoop]

blokes down the pub know better.

It's true, there was one down my local who said he saw Elvis down at the chip shop...

 

[Supergod00]

For a good, no BS explanation of the complications of leaving you should watch this, also debunks some of the misinformation. Take particular note of the issues if we don't accept the Norway model, ie paying in and having free movement, the fundamental issue with the Brexit campaign is that there is an infinite number of obsticals to get over, two years to leave and ten to negotiate a deal that would ultimately be worse then what we have, kiss goodbye to our economy!

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[GoldhawkRoad]

Farms can need people at short notice often just for a few weeks, any visa system we have is bound to be complex and very unlikely to meet the needs, who's responsibility would it be for overstaying etc?

Farmers plan for harvest, and in the event of exceptional circumstances, gaps can be filled by young British that are unemployed, before the need to draft in from overseas. I don't see visas for seasonal agricultural work need be complex - there must be a system here for i.d. which will help identify and deter illegals and overstayers. Employers can already be fined for employing, and landlords under a duty too. The NHS must report anyone they treat that can't prove their entitlement to be here. Those that overstay won't get future visas.

 

[Stroller]

For a good, no BS explanation of the complications of leaving you should watch this, also debunks some of the misinformation. Take particular note of the issues if we don't accept the Norway model, ie paying in and having free movement, the fundamental issue with the Brexit campaign is that there is an infinite number of obsticals to get over, two years to leave and ten to negotiate a deal that would ultimately be worse then what we have, kiss goodbye to our economy!

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I already posted this Super, but no harm. This is just the kind of no-nonsense analysis that we should have had more exposure to during the campaign.

 

[Supergod00]

Farmers plan for harvest, and in the event of exceptional circumstances, gaps can be filled by young British that are unemployed, before the need to draft in from overseas. I don't see visas for seasonal agricultural work need be complex - there must be a system here for i.d. which will help identify and deter illegals and overstayers. Employers can already be fined for employing, and landlords under a duty too. The NHS must report anyone they treat that can't prove their entitlement to be here. Those that overstay won't get future visas.

The fact is that it'll increase the costs for the farmers which will ultimately result in an end product that is more expensive for you and I.

 

[sb_73]

Farmers plan for harvest, and in the event of exceptional circumstances, gaps can be filled by young British that are unemployed, before the need to draft in from overseas. I don't see visas for seasonal agricultural work need be complex - there must be a system here for i.d. which will help identify and deter illegals and overstayers. Employers can already be fined for employing, and landlords under a duty too. The NHS must report anyone they treat that can't prove their entitlement to be here. Those that overstay won't get future visas.

Are you suggesting drafting the unemployed to work on farms? Would they have uniforms too? What if they live in a city?

I have no problem with ID cards but that has been examined and ruled out in the past, for work why wouldn't NI numbers suffice. Good news for the NHS, more people checking the identity of the sick, another bureaucracy.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Are you suggesting drafting the unemployed to work on farms? Would they have uniforms too? What if they live in a city?

I have no problem with ID cards but that has been examined and ruled out in the past, for work why wouldn't NI numbers suffice. Good news for the NHS, more people checking the identity of the sick, another bureaucracy.

They could at least be offered work on farms. It's short term work, a chance to make some money in rural surroundings. Londoners are not allergic to the countryside, I was one, and it may give urban youngsters a chance to see another side of life.

Part of the problem in the NHS is that it treats people who have no entitlement and have paid not a penny into the system. They fly in, stay with a relative and get the benefit of costly treatment. Patient identity verification is a necessary feature of the NHS going forward imo

 

[sb_73]

They could at least be offered work on farms. It's short term work, a chance to make some money in rural surroundings. Londoners are not allergic to the countryside, I was one, and it may give urban youngsters a chance to see another side of life.

Part of the problem in the NHS is that it treats people who have no entitlement and have paid not a penny into the system. They fly in, stay with a relative and get the benefit of costly treatment. Patient identity verification is a necessary feature of the NHS going forward imo

Where will all these urban farm workers live?

For EU residents there is a system whereby funds are transferred from one health system to another, to reflect net flows of people (I think the UK pays about £2k per head for the British living in Spain to the Spanish system). It's much more efficient than having a nurse, or extra administrators, check patients ID at point of care. And it happens now.

Concentrations of migrants arriving over a short period of time in specific places puts pressure on GP services, but I don't think so much on hospitals, apart from maternity care, because most EU migrants are young. And 10% of all our doctors are EU migrants (another 20% non EU).

 

[Telford Ranger]

For a good, no BS explanation of the complications of leaving you should watch this, also debunks some of the misinformation. Take particular note of the issues if we don't accept the Norway model, ie paying in and having free movement, the fundamental issue with the Brexit campaign is that there is an infinite number of obsticals to get over, two years to leave and ten to negotiate a deal that would ultimately be worse then what we have, kiss goodbye to our economy!

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He's a Monnet scholar bought by the EU and paid to spread their propaganda.

The European Commission is the executive of the European Union and promotes its general interest.

The programme includes the network of Jean Monnet European Centres of Excellence, university-level institutions recognised by the European Commission for high quality research into, and teaching of, topics relating to European integration. The Commission also funds Jean Monnet Chairs and Jean Monnet teaching modules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Monnet_Programme

Prof Michael Dougan M.A. (Cantab), Ph.D (Cantab)
Professor of European Law and Jean Monnet Chair in EU Law

https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/law/staff/michael-dougan/research/

 

[sb_73]

He's a Monnet scholar bought by the EU and paid to spread their propaganda.

The European Commission is the executive of the European Union and promotes its general interest.

The programme includes the network of Jean Monnet European Centres of Excellence, university-level institutions recognised by the European Commission for high quality research into, and teaching of, topics relating to European integration. The Commission also funds Jean Monnet Chairs and Jean Monnet teaching modules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Monnet_Programme

Prof Michael Dougan M.A. (Cantab), Ph.D (Cantab)
Professor of European Law and Jean Monnet Chair in EU Law

https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/law/staff/michael-dougan/research/

Do you think every single 'expert' who has spoken in favour of Remain is a corrupt liar Telford? Could it be vaguely possible that they may be saying things you don't like, they may even be wrong, but at least some are sincere?

For what it's worth I think everybody who has spoken publically both Leave and Remain can be accused of exaggeration, and being misleading, but the only insincere one is Boris Johnson, who only has a personal agenda.

 

[Supergod00]

He's a Monnet scholar bought by the EU and paid to spread their propaganda.

The European Commission is the executive of the European Union and promotes its general interest.

The programme includes the network of Jean Monnet European Centres of Excellence, university-level institutions recognised by the European Commission for high quality research into, and teaching of, topics relating to European integration. The Commission also funds Jean Monnet Chairs and Jean Monnet teaching modules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Monnet_Programme

Prof Michael Dougan M.A. (Cantab), Ph.D (Cantab)
Professor of European Law and Jean Monnet Chair in EU Law

https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/law/staff/michael-dougan/research/

Then disprove what he says in a structured way backed by facts, rather then the usual tin foil hat leave arguments that it's all a conspiracy. I'm guessing he knows a little more then anyone here on the eu

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Where will all these urban farm workers live?

For EU residents there is a system whereby funds are transferred from one health system to another, to reflect net flows of people (I think the UK pays about £2k per head for the British living in Spain to the Spanish system). It's much more efficient than having a nurse, or extra administrators, check patients ID at point of care. And it happens now.

Concentrations of migrants arriving over a short period of time in specific places puts pressure on GP services, but I don't think so much on hospitals, apart from maternity care, because most EU migrants are young. And 10% of all our doctors are EU migrants (another 20% non EU).

Urban farm workers will have the same living conditions as all the other seasonal workers! On the farm.

If we leave the EU, the benefit of patient identification is that it will pick up non-entitled claimants coming from within and outside the EU. At present, there are numbers of wealthy claimants abusing the system flying in from Africa.

 

[Telford Ranger]

Do you think every single 'expert' who has spoken in favour of Remain is a corrupt liar Telford? Could it be vaguely possible that they may be saying things you don't like, they may even be wrong, but at least some are sincere?

Of course not. I'm happy to accept people have valid reasons for remain I just wish they'd accept people have their own valid reasons for exit. He has been posted twice on here as an "expert" yet nobody has linked the source of his academic funding. For all his "aw shucks here's my totally unbiased assessment of the EU speil" he didn't himself and I think it's worth pointing out, his sincerity in his beliefs notwithstanding.