Fear plain and simple imo Diego. At its core there's a genuine feeling of a loss of identity. I can respect that but imo this country and its identity has been built on immigration not suffered as a result of it.
Off Topic YOUR VOTE COUNTED...
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Fear plain and simple imo Diego. At its core there's a genuine feeling of a loss of identity. I can respect that but imo this country and its identity has been built on immigration not suffered as a result of it.
what has that got to do with the point i was making about the lazy idea any worries about immigration being linked to racism
Anyone with the slightest knowledge of our history knows we are a nation built on immigration (either through conquest or friendly) since the Romans first came marching in (I will leave the Scots and Welsh out of it
). The identity angle may be a contributory factor but not through immigration, through the idea that Europe will become one nation (federal) and we will be absorbed into the whole.
true
but the idea we can just build and staff a huge number of new schools in the space of a few years is just unrealistic
Hmmm mm. I work in the education sector....it's not that easy to slap up a school procurement and boundary wise. And most existing schools should have been torn down according to H&S rules...(talking NI tbf but I doubt it's a different scenario). They were built for a literal 5 -5 kind of annual enrollment i.e pastoral migration 50 years ago. Most schools that's fine...but not in areas of quick population increase: be it internal migration or external.
Capital spending always has the biggest budget....for a reason...they know it will never be spent because concurrent spending is every year (your point). It's why the ridiculous idea of PFI came about under Labour...shift capital over 25 years and it leaves more for concurrent in theory....never worked. Population shift is too quick. Left with empty buildings we pay for over 25 years and the same existing pupil placement problems...
TBH I can't remember seeing a new primary school built in the area I live for 30 years or more, most of the existing schools have been re-hashed/modernised but not made any bigger to take in more pupils (students to you young ones).
Simplistic Treble...and you know it mate.
Yes fear breeds the Nationalistic isolationism....history tells us that...but the last two world wars weren't sparked by isolationism they were ironically because of international pacs....
Bcos the immigration argument plays on people's xenophobia. But if there was 50k net coming from EU, the Brexit campaigners would still be for it.
To answer yours and @Diego post, I've seen them built inside 2-3 years through pseudo PFI schemes. Lendlease/Cofley are well known sheisters/company involved. Dont get me wrong, I'm not advocating PFI but I've been to them and other new builds and down the country. Was one in West Mids 8 months ago. Planned 2008 and ready for use Spring 2011. And that was a massive primary and secondary site.
But even if we dont want PFI, the argument is then about funding.
Again...are you not guilty of lumping every brexiteer into the "no immigration" camp?
Many have said they prefer to be in a position to take a doctor from Bangladesh than a shop assistant from Poland.
I'm not sure I agree with where that line of thought goes in political terms but the logic of it is fine.
X amount of posts need filled(from labourer to surgeon)...can't fill x from domestic population so them look in a controlled fashion around the world.
The flaw in this scenario is its against the same free market economics a lot of the Brexiteers espouse. China could run a good version of that immigration policy...Cuba did but a western country with the economic model we play by? Very difficult.
Anyone with the slightest knowledge of our history knows we are a nation built on immigration (either through conquest or friendly) since the Romans first came marching in (I will leave the Scots and Welsh out of it
You know Diego, I honestly think the average person doesnt give a flying fig about Europe. They don't really care about federalism. What matters to people is what the community looks like on their doorstep. If they see the faces around them changing they feel a loss of tradition and identity. And you know what, someone needs to reach out to those people. But that someone shouldnt be the likes of Nigel Farage!
I also think that what we need to work out is how we should look to assimilate those that do come in. IF they're paying taxes then they're contributing and need to be shown how they can make a valid economic and cultural contribution to British society... somehow. One example with Eastern Europeans is their strong Christian faith for example.
Can I just say. This thread proves how much both camps have failed.
We start getting into the nitty gritty and I'm even to blame at times in mistakenly thinking we've gone off topic.
We haven't. This is the real conversation. Yet our leaders are still calling each other names...
We start getting into the nitty gritty and I'm even to blame at times in mistakenly thinking we've gone off topic.
We haven't. This is the real conversation. Yet our leaders are still calling each other names...
Sorry I didnt make myself clear. I'm not talking about Joe Public. I'm talking about the Brexit campaigners.
I think ppl have forgotten this goes back to Maastricht. There was no mass immigration back in the early 1990's but we had the same right wing idiots in politics/government claiming all sorts of doom and gloom. So the immigration argument used by them now is a convenience.
But they were brought about, in part at least, by the fear of expansionism of others, which is a form of fear of loss of identity. The pacts were made for that very reason.
Yes..and no.
If I was a brexiteer ...I'd argue that ...scrap that...it's always been this way. Germany
.because it's been decimated militarily still has a cultural bias of control. They've used economics....
We have (along with most of Europe) been afraid of Germany's strength in many aspects...
We as a nation competed with them with global trade rather than continental...as we did with France and Spain before them. And gained the same arrogance as a nation through doing it.
Present day. Germany is not a pro EU country...they are a pro Germany country...France thought they were pro EU because it furthered the cause of internal France.
The southern and eastern states are historically young. Italys behaviour in ww2 as one of the older new states shows that
..Spain as a democratic state? Even younger. And the east?
The three main players in this...us..France...Germany...are playing the same old game only with economics...
You make some very valid points but, like others, tend to think people who vote out all have a strong fear of immigration. I don't blame you for this, the in camp have pushed it right from the start and at the moment it seems their only argument (if you want out you are racist).
I will be open with you and say I am voting out, nothing to do with immigration, I just don't like the way things are heading. We joined a "common Market" as a way to open up trading with other like minded countries, now we have a European government (what are they governing?). There is talk of a European armed force, if we have a problem like the Falkland's again will they fight for us or will we be left with no armed forces of our own to defend them? (Spain and Portugal could face similar problems).
I look at things like the British Steel industry (yep not owned by a British company but employing British labour) and wonder how much of their steel is bought in Europe, could they have helped more?
We are told we will lose trading rights with Europe (Switzerland and Norway seem to do ok), if we are lucky the Commonwealth will welcome us back (that's 153 trading partners not 28, and many of them are fast growing economy's).
We currently have a trading deficit with Europe, much of which is spent on cars. Do you think the Germans and French are going to stop selling Mercedes, BMW's, Citroens and Peugeots and hurt their own car industry? (the Italians do white goods and plastic industry machinery also)
We would be stepping into the unknown it is said, so what do we know about the future if we remain and will the remain people admit they knew it would happen if it all goes tits up?
The City of London will collapse, it is a world trade centre not a European one and has been for a very long time before the EU was formed, the fact that Germany want's to take that place will not change if we leave or remain.
I am rambling a bit now so will stop but could go on for pages but you get the gist
Very true You make some very valid points but, like others, tend to think people who vote out all have a strong fear of immigration. I don't blame you for this, the in camp have pushed it right from the start and at the moment it seems their only argument (if you want out you are racist).
I will be open with you and say I am voting out, nothing to do with immigration, I just don't like the way things are heading. We joined a "common Market" as a way to open up trading with other like minded countries, now we have a European government (what are they governing?). There is talk of a European armed force, if we have a problem like the Falkland's again will they fight for us or will we be left with no armed forces of our own to defend them? (Spain and Portugal could face similar problems).
I look at things like the British Steel industry (yep not owned by a British company but employing British labour) and wonder how much of their steel is bought in Europe, could they have helped more?
We are told we will lose trading rights with Europe (Switzerland and Norway seem to do ok), if we are lucky the Commonwealth will welcome us back (that's 153 trading partners not 28, and many of them are fast growing economy's).
We currently have a trading deficit with Europe, much of which is spent on cars. Do you think the Germans and French are going to stop selling Mercedes, BMW's, Citroens and Peugeots and hurt their own car industry? (the Italians do white goods and plastic industry machinery also)
We would be stepping into the unknown it is said, so what do we know about the future if we remain and will the remain people admit they knew it would happen if it all goes tits up?
The City of London will collapse, it is a world trade centre not a European one and has been for a very long time before the EU was formed, the fact that Germany want's to take that place will not change if we leave or remain.
I am rambling a bit now so will stop but could go on for pages but you get the gist
No I'm not saying Brexit people are racist and certainly not you. We have to separate the people in charge of the Brexit campaign from those who may vote for them. If we put your reasons (which are different) to one side, what I'm saying is if you ask voters who are being swayed by Brexit as a result of immigration they would say "hey if I could see outside there's a good balance of white British and Eastern Europeans and other minorities then that's ok." So they're not being racist. They just dont like the balance swinging considerably towards the EU migrants when they step out their front door.
Your reasons for leaving are different. But arent you in the least bit worried about the economy, about how difficult life may become for you, your family or future generations?
I have a granddaughter now (6 months old) it is her and my 3 kids I worry about. I see the EU collapsing in the next few years in a big way (10-15) and we will be left behind by the rest of the world. If we do end up voting leave do you think we will be the last or just the first of many?
History tells us that large conglomerates eventually fall apart (I will go back as far as Rome again
, and USSR even though they were both forced in a more violent way).What do you think will happen to make future generations lives more difficult if we leave (given that it is supposed to be a step into the unknown)?