Ex-Manager Thread

[Saints Fan4Life]

I really wanted to give you a 'like' for this and all was going well for the first 50 minutes or so!
However, expecting our academy to be the key is, regretfully, wishful thinking. Unless you have a genius on your books it's always easier to go and buy in someone ready made. It's a shame but it's the way it is. And, of course, once those players are in they always seem to be favoured over the home- growns.
Targett always played well, I think JWP was looking better than Clasie and Reed never got any chance at all. In the lower leagues it is easier to play your youngsters and that is where our reputation came from. Since the beginning of our Premier League adventure I would say our record for playing academy players is actually very poor.

Despite the fact we blooded more youngsters in the PL, than we did in the lower leagues?

Thinking of the Liebherr era and recent history, we blooded Alex Chamberlain & Ben Reeves playing a league match in the lower leagues, plus another handful off the bench (Mainly in cups)

In the PL, we've blooded JWP, Chambers, Shaw, Reed, Hesketh, Targett, Gallagher as starters, plus another god knows how many off the bench. (mainly in the PL)

 

[ImpSaint]

I really wanted to give you a 'like' for this and all was going well for the first 50 minutes or so!
However, expecting our academy to be the key is, regretfully, wishful thinking. Unless you have a genius on your books it's always easier to go and buy in someone ready made. It's a shame but it's the way it is. And, of course, once those players are in they always seem to be favoured over the home- growns.
Targett always played well, I think JWP was looking better than Clasie and Reed never got any chance at all. In the lower leagues it is easier to play your youngsters and that is where our reputation came from. Since the beginning of our Premier League adventure I would say our record for playing academy players is actually very poor.

I am not suggesting that any of those 3 should be first choice. They should be given a few starts though here and there and not just 20 minutes every other week for JWP, Targett only when we want to play a 5 man backline and Reed only if there is no one else left.

The 5 min cameos in games we are winning should be used for those behind those 3 to get them experience but we should be able to play these 3 in a few games here and there from the start. Not necessarily all in the same game. They will not improve if they do not get real gametime and that means they can continually be ignored because "They aren't good enough."

Stones and Barkley weren't good enough when they came through but they have been given enough game time to help them improve. Ours don't get that.

 

[KillerCephalopod]

Looks like part of this delay might be because we want a 'no poaching' clause:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/everton-poised-confirm-new-manager-8127187

I know it's the mirror but I've also seen it elsewhere

 

[Lff]

Despite the fact we blooded more youngsters in the PL, than we did in the lower leagues?

Thinking of the Liebherr era and recent history, we blooded Alex Chamberlain & Ben Reeves playing a league match in the lower leagues, plus another handful off the bench (Mainly in cups)

In the PL, we've blooded JWP, Chambers, Shaw, Reed, Hesketh, Targett, Gallagher as starters, plus another god knows how many off the bench. (mainly in the PL)

Exactly that. And that's my point. Apart from Shaw and arguably Chambers, none of those have been given enough opportunities in the first team. I'm not saying that any of them are good enough, who knows actually, but they don't get a proper chance because it's easier to buy in.
Imagine next season, we don't buy anyone but play that lot instead. I can't think of many fans would be too happy with that.
Catch 22. They will only get better if you play them but you can't play them because they aren't good enough!

 

[ImpSaint]

Exact exactly. And that's my point. Apart from Shaw and arguably Chambers, none of those have been given enough opportunities in the first team. I'm not saying that any of them are good enough, who knows actually, but they don't get a proper chance because it's easier to buy in.
Imagine next season, we don't buy anyone but play that lot instead. I can't think of many fans would be too happy with that.
Catch 22. They will only get better if you play them but you can't play them because they aren't good enough!

I think we are at opposite ends here though. I cannot understand why JWP can't get 10 starts at least in a 38 game season, Targett similar and Reed 5 or more. Not all in the same games and of course we will still buy in more players but at the moment these guys only start in any match if their incumbent is unavailable.

JWP does not start if Davis, Wanyama, Clasie, Romeu are fit. Targett only starts if Bertrand is not fit OR we play a defensive formation. As soon as we moved back to a more attacking formation last season he was out and Tadic back on the left. Reed is behind JWP, Davis, Wanyama, Clasie, Romeu.

Then the other players behind JWP, Reed and Targett should be getting those 5 minute cameos at the end of matches so that in a few years they can be at the stage JWP and Targett are at. I think we are all agreed that as things stand at the moment none of these 3 are realistic first choice options but the way we have been for the last 3 years they will never be.

If we simply say "It is easier and a better option to buy ready made players" then we are no different to West Ham or Stoke or [most Premier League also rans]

 

[TheSecondStain]

All, have you listened to John Motson on iPlayer Radio - "Are Everton really a bigger club than Southampton?

Link - http://bbc.in/1VIRHGN

Yes, been put up earlier. Not sure anyone has bothered to click on it. More interesting was the interview with MLT on the same programme. He said he was 'disappointed' [read, really, really pissed off] with Koeman and said there were probably 6 million reasons why he wanted to leave.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Despite the fact we blooded more youngsters in the PL, than we did in the lower leagues?

Thinking of the Liebherr era and recent history, we blooded Alex Chamberlain & Ben Reeves playing a league match in the lower leagues, plus another handful off the bench (Mainly in cups)

In the PL, we've blooded JWP, Chambers, Shaw, Reed, Hesketh, Targett, Gallagher as starters, plus another god knows how many off the bench. (mainly in the PL)

I think you only need to look at what Poch is doing at Spuds regarding younger players. Sadly, Poch was *far* better suited to how the board want to run the club than Ronald ever has been.

 

[Whiteley Saint]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...man-ag/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Not happy he knows the players we are after.

 

[Brixham Saint]

Italian Media saying that FDB is going to Lazio.
French Media saying Emery going to PSG.
So that's 2 of the list?

 

[fran-MLs little camera]

So Everton are so much bigger than us that they want some of our players as well as the manager. Are they Liverpool in disguise?

 

[ImpSaint]

If the Telegraph are the chosen "independent" mouthpiece of the club I find it quite intriguing that they mention Howe and Emery with no mention of Pellegrini or AVB. The latter 2 looking likely contenders at this point. Laying a trail away from who will actually get the job?

 

[Lff]

I think we are at opposite ends here though. I cannot understand why JWP can't get 10 starts at least in a 38 game season, Targett similar and Reed 5 or more. Not all in the same games and of course we will still buy in more players but at the moment these guys only start in any match if their incumbent is unavailable.

JWP does not start if Davis, Wanyama, Clasie, Romeu are fit. Targett only starts if Bertrand is not fit OR we play a defensive formation. As soon as we moved back to a more attacking formation last season he was out and Tadic back on the left. Reed is behind JWP, Davis, Wanyama, Clasie, Romeu.

Then the other players behind JWP, Reed and Targett should be getting those 5 minute cameos at the end of matches so that in a few years they can be at the stage JWP and Targett are at. I think we are all agreed that as things stand at the moment none of these 3 are realistic first choice options but the way we have been for the last 3 years they will never be.

If we simply say "It is easier and a better option to buy ready made players" then we are no different to West Ham or Stoke or [most Premier League also rans]

Maybe we're at opposite ends of a circle. I remember when Shaw broke through. We were desperately looking for a left back and couldn't get one so Shaw was the only option. Had we bought someone in, who knows? But he was able to develop. As you say, these guys never will. But is it because they aren't good enough or because they aren't given the opportunity. We'll never know.

Regarding your last point, I don't think we are significantly different to Stoke or West Ham, other than they don't get their team picked apart every year.

 

[fran-MLs little camera]

We've hardly mentioned the players....most will be pissed off and have had their holidays ruined or undergone needless distraction during Euro 2016. Our preseason plans are up the shoot and Les's careful plans have been overturned. Despicable behaviour....get your pound of flesh. Les.

 

[Puck]

I think we are at opposite ends here though. I cannot understand why JWP can't get 10 starts at least in a 38 game season, Targett similar and Reed 5 or more. Not all in the same games and of course we will still buy in more players but at the moment these guys only start in any match if their incumbent is unavailable.

I agree on Reed and you may have a point about the way youth players are used in general but the others are getting what you want. JWP started 14 league games (and made 33 league appearances) last season while Targett started 13 league games.

Personally I'd mix the kids with some fringe players in the League Cup. That wouldn't be popular with some people on here though.

 

[Saintjoey]

Dutch media suggesting Lazio want De Boer but the opposite may not be true

 

[ImpSaint]

Maybe we're at opposite ends of a circle. I remember when Shaw broke through. We were desperately looking for a left back and couldn't get one so Shaw was the only option. Had we bought someone in, who knows? But he was able to develop. As you say, these guys never will. But is it because they aren't good enough or because they aren't given the opportunity. We'll never know.

Regarding your last point, I don't think we are significantly different to Stoke or West Ham, other than they don't get their team picked apart every year.

But thats the point. We have become over the past couple of years no different to West Ham yet we as a club from the board to the manager down to the fans keep telling us we are different. At this point we are no different and if we want to keep telling people we are this great club that brings youngsters through and gives them chances other clubs don't or won't we have to do it.

At this point in time the club that is giving their youngsters the best chance is Man United and Saints fans are continually telling the big clubs that we are the best option for youth.

 

[TheSecondStain]

So Everton are so much bigger than us that they want some of our players as well as the manager. Are they Liverpool in disguise?

It has been argued on the media that they are not. Traditionally, yes. But tradition counts for nothing. Many pundits cannot see the point in Koeman going to Everton, as it is a potential step down. The only football reason that they can possibly come up with is that it may be a better stepping stone to Barcelona, because they believe he is close to the limit on where he can take Saints. Other than that, he is following the money.

Koeman has long been known to want to manage Barcelona. Whether he is capable of it is another matter, but Everton are already being said to be a stepping stone. He won't stick around for long.

 

[ImpSaint]

I agree on Reed and you may have a point about the way youth players are used in general but the others are getting what you want. JWP started 14 league games (and made 33 league appearances) last season while Targett started 13 league games.

Personally I'd mix the kids with some fringe players in the League Cup. That wouldn't be popular with some people on here though.

JWP and Targett started all those games only because the first choices weren't available.

JWP was drafted in due to injuries of Clasie and Davis as well as the suspension(s) of Wanyama which meant Davis was often moved into the DM role.
JWP and Targett got starts when Tadic was injured and then out of form.
Targett got starts when Bertrand was injured.

They didn't start for any other reason than the first choice wasn't available.

One thing that annoyed me was that when there was no DM available that Davis was moved into DM instead of Reed being put in there.

 

[Archers Road]

Maybe we're at opposite ends of a circle. I remember when Shaw broke through. We were desperately looking for a left back and couldn't get one so Shaw was the only option. Had we bought someone in, who knows? But he was able to develop. As you say, these guys never will. But is it because they aren't good enough or because they aren't given the opportunity. We'll never know.

Regarding your last point, I don't think we are significantly different to Stoke or West Ham, other than they don't get their team picked apart every year.

I recently asked a friend of mine who is involved in coaching at a London schools level how Spurs happened to have such a promising crop of youngsters. I basically asked "where are they getting them from". His answer was that "every club has them, and they can all play. a bit. Pochettino is willing to play them".

That certainly tallies with our own experience. The first home game of 2013/14 we started with JWP, Chambers and Shaw all 18 years old, and Pochettino said he had no concerns about their youth, they were starting because he believed they were good enough.

 

[Osvaldorama]

So basically, Koeman knows all of our transfer targets, and has more money than us to go out and get them.

Brilliant.