Off Topic YOUR VOTE COUNTED...

[afcftw]

The weekend before last it was obvious the Brexiters had completely lost the economy argument and a 13 point gap was showing in the polls. Immigration figures come out and the gap narrows to 6 points. Now the Brexiters are pushing Farage to the front again and are going for the working class Alf Garnett vote. We've got three more weeks of this, and by the end they'll sneakily be appealing for the skinheads to stop non-whites from attending the polls, in a subtle, roundabout way. So be it. Just as long as we don't have to face another episode of IDS's crocodile tears about the effects of austerity cuts that he brazenly championed being blamed on east European gypsies, Romanies and God knows what.

Why do you think "non-whites" will vote to remain? Given the argument that lowered EU migration would allow for more visas to non-EU nationals instead of an EU bias to our immigration system it may well be that "non-whites" vote to leave. I believe I saw an article about this on the BBC a while back.

Edit: can't find the original article I read but there is one on there about this subject from four days ago which talks about different ethnic minorities and how they might vote in the referendum.

 

[Tobes]

The weekend before last it was obvious the Brexiters had completely lost the economy argument and a 13 point gap was showing in the polls. Immigration figures come out and the gap narrows to 6 points. Now the Brexiters are pushing Farage to the front again and are going for the working class Alf Garnett vote. We've got three more weeks of this, and by the end they'll sneakily be appealing for the skinheads to stop non-whites from attending the polls, in a subtle, roundabout way. So be it. Just as long as we don't have to face another episode of IDS's crocodile tears about the effects of austerity cuts that he brazenly championed being blamed on east European gypsies, Romanies and God knows what.

I've just watched the Leave campaigns PPB, what a crock of ****.

Blatant lies about the actual net cost of being part of the EU and completely ignoring the GDP fall that'd accompany an exit.

They then showed an 'in EU' and 'out EU' doctors waiting room, amazingly the out one was virtually empty, maybe we're all going to improve our health, or was the intimation that all those bloody foreigners will have ****ed off.......but no, apparently we could build a new hospital a week if we leave...

People will swallow this utter ****e as well ffs.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Why do you think "non-whites" will vote to remain? Given the argument that lowered EU migration would allow for more visas to non-EU nationals instead of an EU bias to our immigration system it may well be that "non-whites" vote to leave. I believe I saw an article about this on the BBC a while back.

Edit: can't find the original article I read but there is one on there about this subject from four days ago which talks about different ethnic minorities and how they might vote in the referendum.

I don't (know). The Brexiters though do (in the context of the barrel-scrapping Alf Garnett vote that we were discussing).

 

[carlthejackal]

I'm still hoping that common sense prevails.

The alternative is extremely frightening and if we sleep walk into it, lead by bigots and morons, then I'll genuinely consider bailing from this country and ****ing off to Portugal.

The Brexiteers are playing on the fear of migration of sections of the population. And going on about the £350m a week to the EU. The reality is that it is such a shot in the dark. No one knows what will happen post-Brexit. Most people expect a drop in the economy. if there is a recession and unemployment, the likes of Boris and his mates won't be the ones to suffer.

 

[BobbyD]

well thats fine.

1. TTIP for uk only will be on less favourable terms

Or we just dont do a trade deal. We seem to be doing okay without one. Better than the one the eu is negotiating in secret that will allow the privatisation of state owned services (yes i know the tories are doi g this) but prevent the re-nationalising of these services.

Food standards being lowered to us standards... probably will impact us if europe takes it on. Still doesnt mean our farmers need to lower themselves

Government being liable to being sued by corporations if policies are proven to affect them

well thats fine.

2. turkey will never join. uk has veto

Uk had a veto. Who in uk has a veto. You can put your house on a few backhanders or merkels bullying if she wants them in she will have them in. Shes already pandering to the turks but allowing freedom of speech to be censored (german comedian getting sued or something for blasting erdogen)

well thats fine.

3. Uk alreadys spends what it likes on tory projects.

True. Next time we should trying to vote in a better party or hope osbourne doesnt run the country

well thats fine.

4. The greek problem cannot be insulated from via leaving. its going to occur. UK doesn't need to offer a red cent anyone based on memebrship to solve it..

It will affect everyone globally. But it will certainly affect us less out of the eu than in it

well thats fine.

5. The rich getting richer and all other issues will not be affected by leaving.. they are the same everywhere.

I would say whilst this is true I'm pretty sure that gap is smaller in the uk than somewhere say usa. We might not be able to stop it as thats how the way works but we can certainly try to slow it down rather than full steam ahead in the eu

Edit with Quotes now im on a pc

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

I've just watched the Leave campaigns PPB, what a crock of ****.

Blatant lies about the actual net cost of being part of the EU and completely ignoring the GDP fall that'd accompany an exit.

They then showed an 'in EU' and 'out EU' doctors waiting room, amazingly the out one was virtually empty, maybe we're all going to improve our health, or was the intimation that all those bloody foreigners will have ****ed off.......but no, apparently we could build a new hospital a week if we leave...

People will swallow this utter ****e as well ffs.

The Beeb had an interview with Chris Grayling before. They asked him why their battlebus still had the gross figure of £350m a week 'cost' of belonging to the EU when that figure doesn't have any of the net benefits of belonging to the EU. "We would obtain those benefits outside the EU anyway', he blithely muttered without specifying at all how. And this NHS argument - Boris, IDS and Farage are going to spend £350m a week more on the NHS a week if we leave the EU? Really? TThink of all the extra doctors and nurses that will create. Great news - that'll do away with unemployment in our sink estates at a stroke, and with less money spent on benefits we'll be able to fund a manned space programme toMars.

Or maybe we'll just spend the £350m on even more tax cuts for the five families behind the right-wing press. Hmmm, what will Prime Minister Boris, and Chancellor Gove (who spent the weekend before the announcement of the Referendum date at Murdoch's wedding) opt for, I wonder? And what will Lord Farage at the Home Office advise?

 

[BobbyD]

The Beeb had an interview with Chris Grayling before. They asked him why their battlebus still had the gross figure of £350m a week 'cost' of belonging to the EU when that figure doesn't have any of the net benefits of belonging to the EU. "We would obtain those benefits outside the EU anyway', he blithely muttered without specifying at all how. And this NHS argument - Boris, IDS and Farage are going to spend £350m a week more on the NHS a week if we leave the EU? Really? TThink of all the extra doctors and nurses that will create. Great news - that'll do away with unemployment in our sink estates at a stroke, and with less money spent on benefits we'll be able to fund a manned space programme toMars.

Or maybe we'll just spend the £350m on even more tax cuts for the five families behind the right-wing press. Hmmm, what will Prime Minister Boris, and Chancellor Gove (who spent the weekend before the announcement of the Referendum date at Murdoch's wedding) opt for, I wonder? And what will Lord Farage at the Home Office advise?

Whilst 350 is a misleading figure, its factually true that we give something like 170m away a week (somewhere around that) and this figure has been rising. This might be offset by a smaller economy as no one really knows but it is fact the eu take that much (to give away to smaller countries and/or feed the beauracratic machine).

I see you have spun the argument to not trusting the tories, i guess would you be pro brexit if corbyn was in charge, or the greens or someone you preferred?

I saw you mention earlier that you are scared of brexit hitting your pensions and that is a very legtimate reason for yourself. I can totally understand why you would want to remain in the eu

 

[theevilreddevil]

VOTE IN

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Did you guys notice the subtle racism in the new nhs.

The old one has a coloured nurse settling there. The out cuts to a while nurse sitting beside.. or subliminal message that white english get hired. Then the cut back to the coloured nurse to doing the work.

They then miracle cured the old dears emphysema or whatever in 15mins using white doctors.

Nice.

....

Really.. That's it?

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Whilst 350 is a misleading figure, its factually true that we give something like 170m away a week (somewhere around that) and this figure has been rising. This might be offset by a smaller economy as no one really knows but it is fact the eu take that much (to give away to smaller countries and/or feed the beauracratic machine).

I see you have spun the argument to not trusting the tories, i guess would you be pro brexit if corbyn was in charge, or the greens or someone you preferred?

I saw you mention earlier that you are scared of brexit hitting your pensions and that is a very legtimate reason for yourself. I can totally understand why you would want to remain in the eu

Don't think so - I voted for that Blueshite Burnham. And my union, the RMT, is totally for Brexit on the basis of privatisation. I've looked at the subject holistically and drawn my conclusion, but yes, the creepy figures on the Brexit campaign (and specifically their closeness to Murdoch) has informed my decision more than the creepy figures such as Cameron, Mandelsohn and Blair on the Remain side. As to my pension, I have said I'll survive whatever - I'm concerned for my daughter and her generation.

But, underlying it all is Murdoch - as I have said, there is not thing since he obtained influence in this country in the 60's that has been to the benefit of me, people like me, or the people I care for. If his papers propose anything my default position is to oppose with all my being.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

1. TTIP for uk only will be on less favourable terms

Or we just dont do a trade deal. We seem to be doing okay without one. Better than the one the eu is negotiating in secret that will allow the privatisation of state owned services (yes i know the tories are doi g this) but prevent the re-nationalising of these services.

Food standards being lowered to us standards... probably will impact us if europe takes it on. Still doesnt mean our farmers need to lower themselves

Government being liable to being sued by corporations if policies are proven to affect them

2. turkey will never join. uk has veto

Uk had a veto. Who in uk has a veto. You can put your house on a few backhanders or merkels bullying if she wants them in she will have them in. Shes already pandering to the turks but allowing freedom of speech to be censored (german comedian getting sued or something for blasting erdogen)

3. Uk alreadys spends what it likes on tory projects.

True. Next time we should trying to vote in a better party or hope osbourne doesnt run the country

4. The greek problem cannot be insulated from via leaving. its going to occur. UK doesn't need to offer a red cent anyone based on memebrship to solve it..

It will affect everyone globally. But it will certainly affect us less out of the eu than in it

5. The rich getting richer and all other issues will not be affected by leaving.. they are the same everywhere.

I would say whilst this is true I'm pretty sure that gap is smaller in the uk than somewhere say usa. We might not be able to stop it as thats how the way works but we can certainly try to slow it down rather than full steam ahead in the eu

How to all.

Out of eu = trade tariffs. Good luck negotiating with us and China as a peripheral state.

Turkey bribes.. please... it's the UK parliaments veto and I can tell you a lot more states than us would take let them in.

Food standards??? That's a laugh. The UK government outside eu would have the gm foods quicker. The eu aint trading down.

How on earth do you think a global market collapse as UK on own would be any better then in eu???? They are our export market.. end of. If it tanks we are done. How....

As for comparing usa to eu.. wow... if anything the usa is the polar opposite. I mean right now the French air traffic controller communists are closing air space and people are trying to do a deal to have UK and Spain and Germans step in if they do . Would that be impossible if Britain were out.. no.. That's the difference in campaigns. It's not about scaremongering it's about free trade in a 450mil block. We need it end of.

 

[Germlands Nozzer]

Everyone's got something to lose. the younger have longer to fix it...

I think our german overlords should decide anyway.

If you want to give me that power, then I am happy to take it.

 

[Germlands Nozzer]

Uk had a veto. Who in uk has a veto. You can put your house on a few backhanders or merkels bullying if she wants them in she will have them in. Shes already pandering to the turks but allowing freedom of speech to be censored (german comedian getting sued or something for blasting erdogen)

MITO's already spoken to your other points but on this one, that's completely irrelevant. The German comedian deliberately flouted the German laws on defamation of character to make a point about freedom of speech in Turkey; Erdogan then chose to exercise his right to charge him. Nothing to with Merkel.

Also, given how long it would take for Turkey to become member, I doubt Merkel would still be Chancellor at that point.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Whilst 350 is a misleading figure, its factually true that we give something like 170m away a week (somewhere around that) and this figure has been rising. This might be offset by a smaller economy as no one really knows but it is fact the eu take that much (to give away to smaller countries and/or feed the beauracratic machine).

I see you have spun the argument to not trusting the tories, i guess would you be pro brexit if corbyn was in charge, or the greens or someone you preferred?

I saw you mention earlier that you are scared of brexit hitting your pensions and that is a very legtimate reason for yourself. I can totally understand why you would want to remain in the eu

This is as vague as one of Sisu's (bless his memory) graph's. Can you quantify these figures with any facts please? Ta.

 

[theevilreddevil]

Vote Leave and take back control

 

[BobbyD]

How to all.

Out of eu = trade tariffs. Good luck negotiating with us and China as a peripheral state.

Turkey bribes.. please... it's the UK parliaments veto and I can tell you a lot more states than us would take let them in.

Food standards??? That's a laugh. The UK government outside eu would have the gm foods quicker. The eu aint trading down.

How on earth do you think a global market collapse as UK on own would be any better then in eu???? They are our export market.. end of. If it tanks we are done. How....

As for comparing usa to eu.. wow... if anything the usa is the polar opposite. I mean right now the French air traffic controller communists are closing air space and people are trying to do a deal to have UK and Spain and Germans step in if they do . Would that be impossible if Britain were out.. no.. That's the difference in campaigns. It's not about scaremongering it's about free trade in a 450mil block. We need it end of.

yup out of EU means trade tariffs i agree with this. As for negotiating with chinese, our knowledge, culture, history, law and brands which the chinese love. Also trade agreements are meant to be able to help both countries else both will not enter. Now whether it will be as good as a european one remains to be seen. It seems a no brainer that bigger party, more favourable agreement. There is a complication with the EU though, its 28 countries or however many in the EU need to all agree and some will want some things over others. Who knows when a trade agreement will ever be completed and with what terms.

Turkey coming is not totally implausible. I think they will join fairly soon. Would you personally prefer them in or out?

Sources on Uk wanting to adopt US food standards please?

Everyone was affected by the global crisis, but China and Canada were not as affected. I'm not saying we won't be affected, just that we will be more affected. I will say i don't know enough about this but if the EU started giving bailouts over IMF or Eurozone it wouldnt not surprise me (just like how the EU are giving turkey 3 billion).

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree MITO

This is as vague as one of Sisu's (bless his memory) graph's. Can you quantify these figures with any facts please? Ta.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35943216

MITO's already spoken to your other points but on this one, that's completely irrelevant. The German comedian deliberately flouted the German laws on defamation of character to make a point about freedom of speech in Turkey; Erdogan then chose to exercise his right to charge him. Nothing to with Merkel.

Also, given how long it would take for Turkey to become member, I doubt Merkel would still be Chancellor at that point.

I have just done a quick read up on what was broadcast. Whilst what he broadcast is distasteful and actually i'm in no way sympathetic to what will happen to him (poking the hornets nest), this sort of satire and bashing of leaders/celebrities is a dime and dozen. Whilst technically correct that he can be prosecuted as there is a really obscure law that has been bought to the attention of the german government which they are going to appeal, do you think had that not been erdogan the consequences would have been different?

 

[afcftw]

This is as vague as one of Sisu's (bless his memory) graph's. Can you quantify these figures with any facts please? Ta.

You can look up the figures on what each country pays in and gets out fairly easily, it is quite simply a fact that we pay in billions more each year than we get out in direct funding and the EU decides what to spend that money on. We could just as easily fully fund all EU projects in the UK and have billions left over. Off the top of my head in 2014 we paid in 17 billion and receieved 6billion back in funding. I think the figures are similar for other years but I'd have to go and check again.

Edit: checking the above link from Bobby I may be thinking of 2013 not 2014, as I said figures off the top of my head.

 

[philo beddoe]

This is as vague as one of Sisu's (bless his memory) graph's. Can you quantify these figures with any facts please? Ta.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35943216

It looks like we pay around £161 a week. I think it's clear that there would be financial turmoil if we leave, certainly in the short term. I can't see it being the armageddon that people are portraying on here though. The EU has just as much to lose as we do if it loses a significant trading partner and any additional tariffs will be reciprocal.

Myself and a lot of the people I know have genuine concerns over immigration and even on here they seem to be dismissed as just little englanders which further entrenches opinions. As for the issue of Turkey joining the EU, it wasn't too long ago that Cameron was doing everything in his power to speed up their membership and so I'm sure people can be forgiven for not trusting him now.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/camerons-support-for-turkeys-eu-membership-should-worry-us-all/

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

You can look up the figures on what each country pays in and gets out fairly easily, it is quite simply a fact that we pay in billions more each year than we get out in direct funding and the EU decides what to spend that money on. We could just as easily fully fund all EU projects in the UK and have billions left over. Off the top of my head in 2014 we paid in 17 billion and receieved 6billion back in funding. I think the figures are similar for other years but I'd have to go and check again.

Edit: checking the above link from Bobby I may be thinking of 2013 not 2014, as I said figures off the top of my head.

Look everyone knows we pay more in that we get out.

It's a long term investment.

Like yeah we could keep a relatively small net number and so could the French and Germans... but.... the money is going into smaller ****ter countries to build them up. I've no issue with this. They get more money. Grow and become more able to spend.. then we supply them. Simple.

This is not an issue for me. The lunatic beauracracy and silliness is what needs reformation jumping ship to placate xenophobic elements of the worst sides of the tories seems nuts to me.

 

[afcftw]

Look everyone knows we pay more in that we get out.

It's a long term investment.

Like yeah we could keep a relatively small net number and so could the French and Germans... but.... the money is going into smaller ****ter countries to build them up. I've no issue with this. They get more money. Grow and become more able to spend.. then we supply them. Simple.

This is not an issue for me. The lunatic beauracracy and silliness is what needs reformation jumping ship to placate xenophobic elements of the worst sides of the tories seems nuts to me.

Whether it's a reason to leave or not, it would be several billions not being paid out that would help cushion the short term economic impacts of leaving.

I agree the beurocracy of the EU is a nonsense that needs to be reformed amongst other things. But what are the realistic possibilities of reform given the way the EU works?

Also there are plenty of reasons people have for wanting to leave that aren't born from xenophobia.