Rule R7

[Mr. Shoes]

My Dad is a concession pass holder and he was offered priority on seats at a cheaper price.

I'm not arguing if that constitutes a concession, I am saying it is making a cheaper seat available as a priority.

You could (could!) argue that was making a concession available. That could (could!) be argued as enough to comply with R7.

I have already agreed that it's not the best argument, but neither is the rule the best drafted. It's a mess and I'd be gobsmacked if it could enforced if pushed, when there is some sort of reduced price on offer. The most likely scenario I can see is the league complying with the the rules to change R7 and make it much more specific in time for next season (if a club pushed them by adopting a controversial interpretation).

I'm not supporting the clubs position, just pointing out the difficulties of applying badly drafted governance. The club could refund any pensioner a few pence and say they had complied. The spirit thing is the next argument, but again it's more of a handshake thing than a court enforceable rule!

 

[originallambrettaman]

My Dad is a concession pass holder and he was offered priority on seats at a cheaper price.

I'm not arguing if that constitutes a concession, I am saying it is making a cheaper seat available as a priority.

You could (could!) argue that was making a concession available. That could (could!) be argued as enough to comply with R7.

I have already agreed that it's not the best argument, but neither is the rule the best drafted. It's a mess and I'd be gobsmacked if it could enforced if pushed, when there is some sort of reduced price on offer. The most likely scenario I can see is the league complying with the the rules to change R7 and make it much more specific in time for next season (if a club pushed them by adopting a controversial interpretation).

I'm not supporting the clubs position, just pointing out the difficulties of applying badly drafted governance. The club could refund any pensioner a few pence and say they had complied. The spirit thing is the next argument, but again it's more of a handshake thing than a court enforceable rule!

You need to forget the odd dodgy deal to try and get someone to sign up to the membership scheme.

At some point we're going to have to announce our match day and away ticket prices, they're going to have to include concession prices for kids and seniors to comply with rules, they can't fudge it.

 

[Mr. Shoes]

Yep, and I'm sure when they are announced there will be...

As they aren't announced yet it's not relevant to conclude we are breaching anything...

Club lawyers will be making sure they have a case if anything is challenged. As I have said a few times the fact the concession price in a zone is identical to a normal customer is my biggest surprise...

 

[originallambrettaman]

Yep, and I'm sure when they are announced there will be...

As they aren't announced yet it's not relevant to conclude we are breaching anything...

Club lawyers will be making sure they have a case if anything is challenged. As I have said a few times the fact the concession price in a zone is identical to a normal customer is my biggest surprise...

There isn't at the moment, the plan is to have all prices zoned without concessions, exactly as per the membership scheme.

 

[Mr. Shoes]

The concession may be that any OAP or kid has a priority to buy at the cheaper zone price..

i.e. a "concession is available" , they are not compelled to buy the higher price.

Same argument as above.

 

[FILEYseadog]

Read back numbnut, you really are as thick as pigshit aren't you.I had work that i couldn't afford to turn down. My old mans friend took over the seat to keep it for when and if i could go back , now i can afford to go back due to the generous price reduction for me, i will.

I have probably been watching City longer than you have slimed around the earth.

Not that i should have to explain myself over again to a thick scumbag like you!

Mavroz

Ben has more ****ing brains then you.
Also he could not be a scumbag if he tried.

You really wouldnt say any of that **** to his face.

 

[Sir Cheshire Ben]

If you were a lawyer you'd be describing R7 as so ambiguous it's almost pointless.
My perspective is to look at how words have legal meaning, wi the benefit of legal training and qualifications.
Imagine a law saying you must have chocolate for old people: then think what counts as chocolate, and how old qualifies.
R7 is about as equivocal as a politicians answer... It can be read in a hundred different ways.
To think I don't understand what it says is stupid, to think what it says can be quantified is the issue!
If it can't be defined completely it can't be enforced. That's why legislation has elaboration. If R7 has elaboration somewhere, or persuasive notes to expand on it, great. If not, it's not simple to apply it.

The Premier League is a private company wholly owned by the member clubs & an extra share owned by The FA. The interpretation of the rules will be available, to any normal person they are clear as they could be.. The Premier League Rule Book of the Premier League is the expression of a contract between the clubs as to how the competition should be run, how relations between clubs should be conducted and how disputes should be resolved, and is approved by The FA annually for approval.

If the club wishes to become a joint owner then it agrees to abide by rules. If they don't agree to the rules, they don't get offered a share in the business. They sign the contract, they follow the rules.

 

[Mr. Shoes]

FFS

No one is arguing the club doesn't have to follow the rules. People keep repeating this argument, and it's a red herring.

What the rule means is the issue.

I suspect some people may well ger a

The Premier League is a private company wholly owned by the member clubs & an extra share owned by The FA. The interpretation of the rules will be available, to any normal person they are clear as they could be.. .

(Ps, where is this elaboration and interpretation that will be available? If it is, then there may be no argument at all as it may be specific!?). Clear as could be is amusing, as describe how clear "available" means!

 

[Cortez91]

Premier League officials are at @hullcity today discussing all aspects of PL operation. Ticketing, media etc. [HASHTAG]#hcafc[/HASHTAG]

 

[Tiger Barmy]

Mavroz

Ben has more ****ing brains then you.
Also he could not be a scumbag if he tried.

You really wouldnt say any of that **** to his face.

Appreciate your comments Filey and I don't have a beef with you.

If he couldn't be a scumbag, he isn't showing it well and believe me if I wanted to say anything to the guys face I would.

 

[Tiger Barmy]

I will stop any name calling. Thanks Filey for bringing me to my sense.

 

[Jeff Lynnes PBCW™]

Just had to pay £487 so my 8 year old can go next season. ****ing fuming.

Not even opening the west upper block that I sit in despite being promoted.

****ing robbing bastards.

 

[Building 7]

This thread demonstrates why lawyers and solicitors exist and earn ludicrous amounts of money. When there's a dispute between two parties a lawyer/solicitor enters the fray to argue their clients side using Blacks law dictionary for definitions. Oxford English or other similar dictionary definitions do not apply in Law. I'm sure there are solicitors reading this that can confirm or deny. BTW there's no connection between Justice and the Legal system.

 

[FILEYseadog]

People can so easily get the wrong idea on a forum..

Ben is a great bloke...

Always posative.

With bags of strength .

He is deffo one of the good guys.

More so then myself who use to a cxxt at one time.

I think everyone on here is ok..

Despite the arguments and fall outs + the rantings and ravings.

Anyway im off to bed..

Everyone on here has helped me without even realising it.

 

[brownbagtiger]

Surely the away fans tickets will be the undoing of the scheme. The away fans don't get a choice as to what zone they are in. The choice is therefore:

• Charge Away fans the same price as equivalent Home Fans zone (ie same price for young, adult, old - no concessions). This seems a clear breach of R7 and I can't see it going down well with any other club when their fans find out - how many will come to the KCOM then?
• Offer concessionary prices for young & old Away fans. Which means Away fans pay less for matchday prices than Home fans. On the club track record, I would guess this would be their choice.
• Offer both Home and Away fans concessions on matchday prices, meaning that it would be cheaper than a membership scheme for many City young & old fans if they get to sit in zones other than Zone 1.

What a mess.

 

[originallambrettaman]

Surely the away fans tickets will be the undoing of the scheme. The away fans don't get a choice as to what zone they are in. The choice is therefore:

• Charge Away fans the same price as equivalent Home Fans zone (ie same price for young, adult, old - no concessions). This seems a clear breach of R7 and I can't see it going down well with any other club when their fans find out - how many will come to the KCOM then?
• Offer concessionary prices for young & old Away fans. Which means Away fans pay less for matchday prices than Home fans. On the club track record, I would guess this would be their choice.
• Offer both Home and Away fans concessions on matchday prices, meaning that it would be cheaper than a membership scheme for many City young & old fans if they get to sit in zones other than Zone 1.

What a mess.

The plan is to have three zones in the away end, though **** knows how they'll manage that if the move them to the West Upper.

 

[Newland Tiger]

It isn't a very good scheme is it ? If only people had pointed this out to the club and asked them to reconsider it all .....

 

[spesupersydera]

Just had to pay £487 so my 8 year old can go next season. ****ing fuming.

Not even opening the west upper block that I sit in despite being promoted.

****ing robbing bastards.

You were one of those throwing your weight behind the Allams with the name change - well, they've come for you now, and unless they sell soon, they'll be coming for the ''I'm all right Jack types'' like the **** Mavroz .............. we should have ALL been together when the bollocks started, I'm sorry you've had to pay all that ..... now you're the same as those who hated the name change, the E stand evictees, those seeing PL money spent on away fans and those affected by the Arco debacle. They've all had a big bite of the Allam **** sandwich, and you've just had yours - welcome to the club.

 

[Mr. Shoes]

This thread demonstrates why lawyers and solicitors exist and earn ludicrous amounts of money. When there's a dispute between two parties a lawyer/solicitor enters the fray to argue their clients side using Blacks law dictionary for definitions. Oxford English or other similar dictionary definitions do not apply in Law. I'm sure there are solicitors reading this that can confirm or deny. BTW there's no connection between Justice and the Legal system.

You get an Oxford book of plain English at the law school I went to!
Lawyers only have contract terms or laws/rules to work with. That's why so much effort goes into the drafting of the terms...
Ambiguity is usually settled by "persuasive" material that may help interpret such rules, usually minutes of meetings where decisions were taken (Hansard for parliamentary debating) and guidance material. In a contract, the rules are what is signed or agreed. Rule 7 is without guidance on the face of it, so unless this guidance was made available as part of the details given to a club they could easily argue the meaning of what the words purport to say.
What's obvious to you may not be if you think about it. If I said you have 7 days to think about it and consider the answer, do I mean 7 days from midnight, from the time I say this post, the time you read it, and does that include weekends?

Tax law is the best example of the power of words... There is NO given right for the state to tax, so they can only take your cash if they legislate for when. Lawyers then argue what the words mean - fortunes were spent on deciding if a Jaffa cake was a cake of a biscuit! Why? One is taxable for VAT.

Solicitors are taught that the dictionary is the starting point, but look up cake and biscuit and work out which is a Jaffa cake! Apply that to "concessions" and must be "available" and see what it could mean if you think widely.

 

[Obadiah]

The concession may be that any OAP or kid has a priority to buy at the cheaper zone price..

i.e. a "concession is available" , they are not compelled to buy the higher price.

Same argument as above.

I think you may well be right. It would appear that Arsenal have a similar scheme to us in most of the ground. They seem to offer concessions only in the family stand with adults, kids and OAPs paying different rates. Hull City could easily increase the direct debits for adults whilst keeping the same monthly payment for pensioners and reducing the payments made by kids. They would appear to be within the Premier League rules if they restrict this to the family stand only, or if they were feeling generous (?), include zone 1.

They could make the equivalent zones concessions for away supporters.