Off Topic European Debate Thread

[Cliftonville]

A few answers to some points raised.

Cliftonville: - my argument re economics is not based on feeding the wealthy but the basic maintenance of the economy. One of my oldest friends has worked in mental health services dealing directly with the most vulnerable for 25 years so I am well aware of exactly what is happening in this (and other) fields. The simple fact is that if we leave, IMO, there will be even less funding for this type of thing...

An opinion is not a fact.

A opinion is that the UK is struggling to meet the demands of an increasing population as it is. Resources are stretched and immigration only stretches if further.

Another opinion is that areas such as Banes have less pressure on resources due to lower %'s of immigrants. This means that areas such as social care are better funded. Reduce immigration fund our services further.

Housing .. Bristol and the UK cannot meet the demands of its own populace. The obvious outcome is that uncontrolled (nearly) immigration will massively inhibit the ability of our populace to own their own homes.

 

[BCFCRob]

I must admit the housing issue is my biggest worry, but leaving the EU won't stop this. I really do dislike the current Tory Government, but even if I ignore that fact and take an unbiased view, the failure to address this is absolutely nightmarish. They pledged to build 400,000 homes by 2020, which sounds all well and good at 100,000 a year, but we take in 400,000 immigrants per year! Assume 4 per household and that 400,000 by 2020 pledge covers the immigrants and makes **** all difference to the rest of us! More homes needed desperately.

Back on topic, the whole point of this thread is surely to provide an argument with pros and cons, which can be debated. Not copying and pasting long, biased articles which nobody is going to read and which actually fails to back up your argument, particularly when said user(s) won't respond to criticisms of those articles.

Does anyone know if any TV debates are planned? Would be very handy in all honesty.

 

[banksyisourhero]

Perhaps in the Eu we could use our influence by electing some proper MEPS. Niger farage and the ukip lot are a laughing stock in the Eu parliament hence why we don't have as much say as perhaps we could

I don't know if you have noticed, but we are in the EU.. the UKIP 'lot' were democratically elected to the EU parliament by our voters?.. If your suggesting that your 'lot' would create influence and help to shape and improve the EU, they wouldn't.. they are spineless followers who don't even have the ambition to govern our own country and to that end don't deserve any power anyway. We have been in Europe since 1974 and the federalism gets worse by the day, why would continuing in the same vein change anything? It hasn't yet.. In fact it has dramatically failed to do so??

You suggest that Europe may 'punish' if we leave, well if they do that will tell you everything you need to know about our so called friends and neighbours and you want to be part of them.

The EU is about business and powerful people protecting their own little nests, it is corrupt and insular.

We were told we would regret not joining the Euro and we would be punished and shunned for not being in it.. Well the world didn't shun us then and they won't if we leave, its not how anyone does business!

 

[banksyisourhero]

must admit the housing issue is my biggest worry, but leaving the EU won't stop this. I really do dislike the current Tory Government, but even if I ignore that fact and take an unbiased view, the failure to address this is absolutely nightmarish. They pledged to build 400,000 homes by 2020, which sounds all well and good at 100,000 a year, but we take in 400,000 immigrants per year! Assume 4 per household and that 400,000 by 2020 pledge covers the immigrants and makes **** all difference to the rest of us! More homes needed desperately.

Take this and extrapolate some figures, if we take 400k extra houses.. would it be fair to say an average of 1 million people in those houses.. lets say 200.000 are kids for example.. that would mean on average, what another 150 schools? where is this infrastructure coming from? thats not to mention the required Doctors, nurses, hospitals etc..

For every immigrant that comes in that means the current population have even more competition to get on the housing ladder and would in fact push house prices up even further.. so what should we do, build more social housing but who gets first choice in social housing.. well currently migrants.

So all the young peoples desire to get themselves on the housing ladder becomes even further away and the people who can afford to buy the other housing stock are landlords who push up the rents for more profit as the demand is insatiable.

So, the likes of MTG inadvertently end up kicking themselves in the bollocks..

 

[RedorDead]

Does anyone know if any TV debates are planned? Would be very handy in all honesty.

I don't know about tv debates, that I know off. A mate put this on Facebook that was pretty good. But equally there will be some good ones for the in camp. Just nice to talk about things other than immigrants

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[Redprintt]

'Just nice to talk about things other than immigrants'

RODney - Hull moving here every year f*cks :
Schools
NHS
Roads
Housing
Uncontrolled EU Immigration f*cks everything.

As for Cameron's speech today, he has amnesia.
Just a few weeks ago - 'he'd lead us out of the EU if his renegotiations failed'.
Even the most ardent 'IN' supporter admits he came back with FA.
So his WW3 threat is pathetic in the extreme.

ps - MTG will buy it though.

 

[RedorDead]

'Just nice to talk about things other than immigrants'

RODney - Hull moving here every year f*cks :
Schools
NHS
Roads
Housing
Uncontrolled EU Immigration f*cks everything.

As for Cameron's speech today, he has amnesia.
Just a few weeks ago - 'he'd lead us out of the EU if his renegotiations failed'.
Even the most ardent 'IN' supporter admits he came back with FA.
So his WW3 threat is pathetic in the extreme.

ps - MTG will buy it though.

No I'm not saying I agree with the immigration not being an issue, in fact I've said it's an issue from day one. Working up and down the country I can see that the roads simply can't cope with the influx of people in this country. I can also see in construction that there might be land in this country but it can't be built on so we've nearly exceeded the capacity of this country if not already.
What I meant by "nice not to talk about immigration" was that it's what everyone believes is the reason why we want out not that it's a number of reasons.

 

[Redprintt]

RODney, are you saying :

I can say we don't have enough school places,
That our NHS can't cope with the number of people who need treatment,
That our Roads are in gridlock every morning and from 4pm,
And our Children can't get on the housing ladder through lack of houses.

But not allowed to put forward that Uncontrolled Immigration is a massive reason for the above.

 

[RedorDead]

RODney, are you saying :

I can say we don't have enough school places,
That our NHS can't cope with the number of people who need treatment,
That our Roads are in gridlock every morning and from 4pm,
And our Children can't get on the housing ladder through lack of houses.

But not allowed to put forward that Uncontrolled Immigration is a massive reason for the above.

Nope I agree with everything you've said, however I do feel that the horse has bolted on that one unfortunately. What I was trying to say that I know all about those issues and agree with it all, but to put a reasonable argument you also need to talk about the other issues. Perhaps I worded it wrong.

 

[Redprintt]

'however I do feel that the horse has bolted on that one unfortunately'
On immigration the horse has certainly bolted.
However, wouldn't it be a sensible idea to shut the fu**ing stable door.

'you also need to talk about the other issues'
OK, Sovereignty.
I hate hate the idea of 27 other countries agreeing something that I have no say in.

TBF RODney it's the person I am.
I had to start my own business 30 years ago, I never liked being told to do something I thought was wrong.
Putting it simply I don't like to rely on others and also I couldn't abide Cameron's pathetic begging bowl approach in his renegotiations.
The bookies say it's odds on we'll stay in, one things for sure I'll never vote again in a UK Election.
What's the point ?

 

[Premiershiporbust IV]

Perhaps in the Eu we could use our influence by electing some proper MEPS. Niger farage and the ukip lot are a laughing stock in the Eu parliament hence why we don't have as much say as perhaps we could.

I can't agree with that, Farage in the EU parliament is absolutely classic. I don't agree with everything he says but in this environment, he lifts the lid off of the federalists agenda time after time and, they REALLY don't like being exposed, warts and all.

The left completely dominates most of Western Europe and anyone who doesn't agree with them is punished. I'll leave it at that for now but Farage's speeches are a horrible embarrassment for the EU hierarchy and I am just sad that they do not get a much higher profile. Anyone who hasn't viewed them should take a look..

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[Mind the gap!]

I don't know if you have noticed, but we are in the EU.. the UKIP 'lot' were democratically elected to the EU parliament by our voters?.. If your suggesting that your 'lot' would create influence and help to shape and improve the EU, they wouldn't.. they are spineless followers who don't even have the ambition to govern our own country and to that end don't deserve any power anyway. We have been in Europe since 1974 and the federalism gets worse by the day, why would continuing in the same vein change anything? It hasn't yet.. In fact it has dramatically failed to do so??

You suggest that Europe may 'punish' if we leave, well if they do that will tell you everything you need to know about our so called friends and neighbours and you want to be part of them.

The EU is about business and powerful people protecting their own little nests, it is corrupt and insular.

We were told we would regret not joining the Euro and we would be punished and shunned for not being in it.. Well the world didn't shun us then and they won't if we leave, its not how anyone does business!

What I am saying is that having seen some clips of ukip in parliament, I can safely say that they are pathetic and get us nowhere. You don't get anywhere by insulting the head of Eu and sounding like a pathetic whining baby.

If we had MEPS who were better in office and we're capable of debating and coherently putting our interests across then we may be in a better position in the Eu.

I believe that leaving will make sod all difference to immigration levels. Perhaps we should invest in our local infrastructure, the unemployed and young could become apprentices and perhaps it might even get people spending money into the local economy

 

[banksyisourhero]

I believe that leaving will make sod all difference to immigration levels

Then explain to us then? When Turkey enters the EU as it will do later this year and the whole population of Turkey is able to come here and live and work (or claim benefits to be sent back to Turkey) and there will not be a single thing we can do to stop that happening, that this will not affect immigration levels?

 

[banksyisourhero]

Perhaps we should invest in our local infrastructure, the unemployed and young could become apprentices and perhaps it might even get people spending money into the local economy

Perhaps we should but Whats this got to do with staying in the EU? We need to do this anyway.

Do you have any idea the scale of building and financing 150 new secondary schools, hospitals and the rest of the public buildings another million people would require. All this whilst protecting the green belt?

 

[Mind the gap!]

Perhaps we should but Whats this got to do with staying in the EU? We need to do this anyway.

Do you have any idea the scale of building and financing 150 new secondary schools, hospitals and the rest of the public buildings another million people would require. All this whilst protecting the green belt?

Links in because of immigration and it being on people's minds.

It may cost a lot but money goes into jobs and local economy, why not sell some of the houses to cover costs and rent out the rest as social housing

 

[Red Robin]

Quite simply put the route of all the problems stem from mass imigration into the uk.
Why are schools under performing,nhs buckleing under the weight of mass immigrants.
If we stay in,wait for a swarm to invade the country,Turks alone could not be catered for,let alone eastern european being able to enter.
It quite frankly is a monster car crash waiting to happen.

 

[johngalleyfan2]

HAVING BEEN AWAY from 20th April till today ... almost.. not read all the posts IMO we should vote leave . simple reason we are a democratic country and Europe is becoming a federal state with democracy a thin veil to keep the masses happy...

Bananas have to be almost straight ... or else recycled so what did the supermarkets and suppliers do ..came up with fun bananas ... just one example of the idiots in Brussels justifying their jobs ....

 

[banksyisourhero]

t may cost a lot but money goes into jobs and local economy, why not sell some of the houses to cover costs and rent out the rest as social housing

I agree with this but would suggest that the people already here and without housing or access to getting any should be prioritised.. a good reason to leave the EU not to stay.

 

[Premiershiporbust IV]

Quite simply put the route of all the problems stem from mass imigration into the uk.
Why are schools under performing,nhs buckleing under the weight of mass immigrants.
If we stay in,wait for a swarm to invade the country,Turks alone could not be catered for,let alone eastern european being able to enter.
It quite frankly is a monster car crash waiting to happen.

Schools are under performing because the kids are getting less intelligent year on year. Why...?

As a snapshot to illustrate, NONE of the youngsters I work with watch the news. In fact the concept is so completely alien that when I suggest it to them, they look at me like I am some sort of imbecile as if to say, why would I do that. If it ain't on Facebook or Twitter, it might as well not have happened. They have very little concept of what is actually going on in the world (this debate for example) and are so vacuously naïve that it is positively frightening...

They actually learn very little (googling does not count as learning unless you retain the information) and if you mention anything that occurred before they were born they look at you as if to say, why would I know that and come out with the phrase that drives me absolutely nuts "never heard of it, that was before my time" to which I reply "so was the Bible but you've heard of that"...

Present company excepted of course and obviously this is not all of the kids and I am sure that all of the parents on here bought their kids up right but, the number in this category is growing year on year....

This is nothing to do with immigration....

 

[banksyisourhero]

Weren't we all like that as kids though Prem?

We learn as we go along in life and experience things.