Off Topic The Politics Thread

[cor blymie]

What's disingenuous is making a case for voting "No" (to stay) by referring back to a romantic view of the UK and the world that no longer exists. No, not you - that was just little a bit of tongue-in-cheek fun, and you picked them, not me - but what Gove, Johnson, Patel, Duncan-Smith and Farage are saying.

If they were only able to speak about the benefits of leaving and not able to speak about the things they don't like about staying, then we'd not be hearing much.

I'm not impressed by the Remain campaign either.

I know, let's play a game. Let's pick something that we think will be true if the UK stays or leaves the EU, depending on your own preference. I'll start...

Q: If the UK votes to remain in the EU, what will change?

A: Not much. We'll still be part of a large organisation that brings strength to its members through its market size, despite frustrating some of its members, some of the time, by its very existence. The UK will still sell the same value of good and services that it does today, to the same countries, with the same amount of perceived interference.

right, lets forego the fantasy, the bollocks about the Mayflower or the migration of birds we read in left wing rags 30 years ago. Let's talk jobs. That they only take jobs the Brits don't want to do. Tell that to those on the building site, or in communications. Tell that to a bloke in Chard, who is told he needs to speak Polish to get a job at the end of his street. Nephew of Nigel Farage? No, someone born in Shepherds Bush, who is not happy with what lays ahead for the country

 

[Chaz]

right, lets forego the fantasy, the bollocks about the Mayflower or the migration of birds we read in left wing rags 30 years ago. Let's talk jobs. That they only take jobs the Brits don't want to do. Tell that to those on the building site, or in communications. Tell that to a bloke in Chard, who is told he needs to speak Polish to get a job at the end of his street. Nephew of Nigel Farage? No, someone born in Shepherds Bush, who is not happy with what lays ahead for the country

Aside from the slightly dodgy overtones in using the word 'they', as if there's anything different about non-British people - what about doctors, nurses, GPs, the Police, the Fire service, IT, Finance, in fact every single business sector you care to think of. All of these are represented with a hugely diverse mix of British and EU citizens. It's not all waiters, builders and bar staff you know.

Your whole premise is built on a lie peddled to you by people with access to a good sound-bite writer. NOBODY gets turned down for a job because he cannot speak polish. It would be illegal - both by UK and EU law. It may be an advantage, but it is not and never will be a requirement. The law does not allow that to happen.

I'm getting worried about the level of misinformation that some Exit supporters are swallowing. I really wish people would find out the truth rather than just listen to Nigel and Boris and accept it all...

 

[TWGWTDT]

Mayflower Churchill etc is just very good history IMO
I watched MG speech yesterday while having my hair cut and agreed with some of his points but IMO it boils down to this for the people wearing Union Jack boxers

To deliver these promises you would need to trust in these idiots to run your country . We have a wonderful history in the UK but it won't pay the bills in today's markets
To think that the UK will get trade deals and suddenly invent a brilliant export market is very foolish and IMO would take 15 years to deliver and this in a country that has poor election turnouts and an ethnic of self only in almost everything
It's in the Anglo Saxon DNA and now that DNA is very much out of balance and control with other imported cultures
It's a great dream to be in charge of your own destiny but roads still won't get built ... There will be plenty of talk in the UK by those who think the UK plays a big part in the world ... It doesn't . The best the UK can hope for is to become a giant Monaco of the world with London the heart of it
But the weather is rubbish
So it leaves you with why do people flock to the UK? ... Money
It can't be lifestyle as there isn't any

 

[TWGWTDT]

If the exit people win
Then who exactly is going to rebuild the UK? and with what?
Boris is a total clown
It's needs a revolution

 

[cor blymie]

Aside from the slightly dodgy overtones in using the word 'they', as if there's anything different about non-British people - what about doctors, nurses, GPs, the Police, the Fire service, IT, Finance, in fact every single business sector you care to think of. All of these are represented with a hugely diverse mix of British and EU citizens. It's not all waiters, builders and bar staff you know.

Your whole premise is built on a lie peddled to you by people with access to a good sound-bite writer. NOBODY gets turned down for a job because he cannot speak polish. It would be illegal - both by UK and EU law. It may be an advantage, but it is not and never will be a requirement. The law does not allow that to happen.

I'm getting worried about the level of misinformation that some Exit supporters are swallowing. I really wish people would find out the truth rather than just listen to Nigel and Boris and accept it all...

how patronising is this, anyone who wants out hasn't a mind of their own, relies on whatever Boris or Nigel says. The Chard incident is true, was advised to learn Polish for safety reasons, so declined the job. 1,700,000 million unemployed and they're (it's that word again) coming in their 100's of thousands. Madness, sheer utter madness

 

[Chaz]

how patronising is this, anyone who wants out hasn't a mind of their own, relies on whatever Boris or Nigel says. The Chard incident is true, was advised to learn Polish for safety reasons, so declined the job. 1,700,000 million unemployed and they're (it's that word again) coming in their 100's of thousands. Madness, sheer utter madness

That response sadly shows a lack of thought and knowledge of the issues.

Firstly, you're telling me that the guy declined the job. That means he was offered the job, or would have been offered, but HE said no. not that he was 'told he needed to speak polish to get the job'. VERY different thing.

As for the hundreds of thousands, we're not in Schengen and have as much control of our borders now as we will in the event of an exit vote. So if you think suddenly we'll become a fortress if we leave, again it shows a lack of understanding that's not a little frightening.

No comment on the fact that it's not all waiters and bar staff? Of course, there would not be any response that doesn't agree with my post, because it's true.

And if you look back over the entire thread, I've said time and again that ALL sides are trading on fear. I'm just picking out those three in this case because they are peddling the very soundbites that you are swallowing.

So no - not patronising, but then again you appear to have made up your mind so I very much doubt there's any mileage in trying to explain stuff further.

 

[TheBigDipper]

right, lets forego the fantasy, the bollocks about the Mayflower or the migration of birds we read in left wing rags 30 years ago. Let's talk jobs. That they only take jobs the Brits don't want to do. Tell that to those on the building site, or in communications. Tell that to a bloke in Chard, who is told he needs to speak Polish to get a job at the end of his street. Nephew of Nigel Farage? No, someone born in Shepherds Bush, who is not happy with what lays ahead for the country

So, let me take this a bit further. I'm not interested in making moral judgements on fellow R's supporters. Let me restate what CorB says as per my game:

Q: If the UK votes to leave the EU, what will change?

A: Foreign people will no longer be able to compete on a level playing field with native Brits in the UK labour market and undercut them by accepting lower wages. If there are Brits available who can do the job, then a foreigner won't get a visa to stay and work here.

Is that a fair statement, CorB? If so, can someone please expand on how that will affect the UK in the short to medium term (do we kick them out, give them 5 years notice to leave, what?) and what effect will it have in the longer term?

 

[Chaz]

So, let me take this a bit further. I'm not interested in making moral judgements on fellow R's supporters. Let me restate what CorB says as per my game:

Q: If the UK votes to leave the EU, what will change?

A: Nobody knows. There are literally hundreds of issues that will need consideration, negotiation, costing, impact assessment, implementation into both UK law and (in the case of british nationals overseas / EU Nationals in the UK) EU law, adoption by all parties concerned, and implementation. Nobody has even started thinking about these steps, let alone knows what will happen.

 

[sb_73]

So, let me take this a bit further. I'm not interested in making moral judgements on fellow R's supporters. Let me restate what CorB says as per my game:

Q: If the UK votes to leave the EU, what will change?

A: Foreign people will no longer be able to compete on a level playing field with native Brits in the UK labour market and undercut them by accepting lower wages. If there are Brits available who can do the job, then a foreigner won't get a visa to stay and work here.

Is that a fair statement, CorB? If so, can someone please expand on how that will affect the UK in the short to medium term (do we kick them out, give them 5 years notice to leave, what?) and what effect will it have in the longer term?

That's a good question in regard to EU immigration and one that the Brexit campaign leaders should be able to answer. My understanding from Gove yesterday was that they will not accept free movement of people in any kind of trade deal. That could keep new arrivals out. We already have as much power as we will ever have in keeping non EU immigrants out. It's the ones who are already here that are perceived as the problem. So what is the position on these people? Stay, stay if you are in certain jobs and pay a lot of tax, stay if you have been here for xx years, please leave as you are swamping our communities and our education, health and social care systems? The trade deal stuff is necessarily difficult to predict, but this should be very easy to have a firm position on.

Even though he is a QPR fan I doubt Gove will respond to this, so if there is anyone who knows what the position is (The Vote Leave campaign brochure only has two short paragraphs on immigration, does not mention this area. The Grassroots Out campaign website has nothing on any of the issues, just a description of the organisation and how to join/ donate to it) or would like to share their view I would be interested. I promise to try not to respond in a pompous liberal elitist way.

 

[Chaz]

I promise to try not to respond in a pompous liberal elitist way.

Don't make promises your keyboard can't keep

 

[sb_73]

Don't make promises your keyboard can't keep

I did say 'try'.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

In whose interest it is to run us down?

Where did that come from?

If that's what you truly believe, then nothing anyone says will make a difference to you.

The quotation "run down" and Germany in particular, actually came from a Remain supporter on the radio yesterday, Charlie Falconer, in the context of the UK needing the protections that Cameron has been given.

The fact is that the UK will be in competition with the Eurozone countries. Yet, because of their majority voting, they will make the rules by which we have to abide, so long as we remain in the EU

 

[Chaz]

The quotation "run down" and Germany in particular, actually came from a Remain supporter on the radio yesterday, Charlie Falconer, in the context of the UK needing the protections that Cameron has been given.

The fact is that the UK will be in competition with the Eurozone countries. Yet, because of their majority voting, they will make the rules by which we have to abide, so long as we remain in the EU

The UK will certainly be in competition with the Eurozone countries if we leave the EU. As it is, a strong UK helps the EU because we are not subject to the local issues that make a less-than-fully integrated Eurozone unworkable, and as such offer some balance overall when they have to deal with situations like Greece (who coincidentally wish they had never joined the Euro, but do NOT want to be out of the EU). Our current position is one that each country that has needed bailouts (Ireland, Spain, Greece) and those that have come close (Portugal, Italy) almost certainly envy. None of these are looking to leave the EU, they just wish that they were able to manage their currency independently. That's where we are now - so why would anyone want to throw it away? If we leave, it will be in the EU's interests to take as much business away from the UK as possible, strengthening them as a trade area and weakening their competition (us) as a result. They would certainly build up a strong financial centre (most likely Frankfurt) to the diminishment of London. Gove's uptopian view of friendly trading is rubbish. He cannot know any of that, and yet he spouts it freely to anyone who will swallow it.

If you think we'll be MORE at risk if we stay than if we leave, then I'm sorry but you're wrong. Leaving would harm our current position - probably irrevocably. Whereas remaining, with our permanent opt-outs in place for Schengen, the Euro, and any further political union, allied to our strong economy that is out-performing the other Euro countries and looks likely to continue to do so, will not. At the very least, the status quo remains. At best, we continue to grow, aided by the very association of countries that you want us to leave, because Britain as a nation would have displayed faith in the EU.

 

[Tramore Ranger]

There was a piece on the radio over here the other day saying that there are approximately 120,000 UK nationals living in ROI and we have the right to vote in this referendum........not sure what side of the argument the spokesman was on or who he was trying to encourage.....

 

[cor blymie]

That response sadly shows a lack of thought and knowledge of the issues.

Firstly, you're telling me that the guy declined the job. That means he was offered the job, or would have been offered, but HE said no. not that he was 'told he needed to speak polish to get the job'. VERY different thing.

As for the hundreds of thousands, we're not in Schengen and have as much control of our borders now as we will in the event of an exit vote. So if you think suddenly we'll become a fortress if we leave, again it shows a lack of understanding that's not a little frightening.

No comment on the fact that it's not all waiters and bar staff? Of course, there would not be any response that doesn't agree with my post, because it's true.

And if you look back over the entire thread, I've said time and again that ALL sides are trading on fear. I'm just picking out those three in this case because they are peddling the very soundbites that you are swallowing.

So no - not patronising, but then again you appear to have made up your mind so I very much doubt there's any mileage in trying to explain stuff further.

I didn't mention waiters or bar staff, you did, the person in Chard wanted the job but didn't think it was right to speak a different language in his own country. Personally I think he had a point

 

[Stroller]

Ted Cruz is finished - his secret is out........

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[cor blymie]

So, let me take this a bit further. I'm not interested in making moral judgements on fellow R's supporters. Let me restate what CorB says as per my game:

Q: If the UK votes to leave the EU, what will change?

A: Foreign people will no longer be able to compete on a level playing field with native Brits in the UK labour market and undercut them by accepting lower wages. If there are Brits available who can do the job, then a foreigner won't get a visa to stay and work here.

Is that a fair statement, CorB? If so, can someone please expand on how that will affect the UK in the short to medium term (do we kick them out, give them 5 years notice to leave, what?) and what effect will it have in the longer term?

no, the way I see it is those foreign nationals in this country and working, nothing changes. The point I was making was, the British public were repeatedly told the new arrivals were only doing the jobs the native population didn't want to do. That was clearly a lie. Everything else you mention didn't come from me

 

[cor blymie]

as a matter of interest, those closest to you, friends, family, work collegues, blokes down the pub, if you had a poll among them, who would come out on top. Remain or Leave. Down here in leafy Devon/Dorset it be a landslide vote for leave (genuinely)

 

[Chaz]

I didn't mention waiters or bar staff, you did, the person in Chard wanted the job but didn't think it was right to speak a different language in his own country. Personally I think he had a point

You said that 'they only take the jobs the Brits don't want to do'.

Are you saying no British person wants to be a doctor, or a nurse, or a firefighter, or a police officer, or work in finance, or IT, or any other job? If you are insisting on saying that there are jobs British people don't want to do, then what would they be? I gave waiting, bar work and building as examples of the type of job your original post implied. Feel free to spell out exactly what jobs only go to EU nationals because 'Brits don't want them'...

And whatever way you paint the situation with this as-yet-unidentified person in Chard, they declined the job. You wrote as if they were not even given the chance due to a lack of language skills unrelated to the job. That's now been shown not to be the case by your own admission.

 

[Chaz]

as a matter of interest, those closest to you, friends, family, work collegues, blokes down the pub, if you had a poll among them, who would come out on top. Remain or Leave. Down here in leafy Devon/Dorser it be a landslide vote for leave (genuinely)

My family / work / social circle is around 70/30 in favour of remaining.