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Lff said:
Here's where it gets tricky. Is, "that Jap" racist? If you didn't know Yoshida's name and you wanted to talk about him, I'm not sure what would be a better way. I guess it depends on the context.

I would talk about, "the black guy" if I don't know a name and he stands out as a minority. I don't believe that is racist. I would do the same if, "the white guy" was in the minority. Its just the easiest way to describe someone. Maybe its lazy but is it any different than saying, "the ginger guy"?

I think we all have a bit of inherent racism in us. I once walked a block or two too far in New Orleans and was suddenly the only white face to be seen. I couldn't help myself but to feel uncomfortable. That is, to and extent, racism.
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There's a difference. Of course, if someone was talking about Yoshida and didn't anything about him except the distinguishing feature of him being Japanese, then one might refer to him as that Japanese player. Once his name is known, one refers to him by it. I get the feeling that the phrase That Jap is not meant to be a term of endearment, shall we say. It's hard for the older ones who lived through WWII to shake off the xenophobia.

I'm the youngest in my immediate family, and I know that my Granddad, Dad and elder brothers and sisters were subject to xenophobic abuse. I got a bit of bullying at school but I fought back. The 1960's came to my aid.
 
fatletiss said:
Interesting. My Dad is 68 and is what I call "generationally racist" but clearly he is the same generation as Lambo who isn't! I'm not sure how that works but maybe Lambo is just better travelled or more cultures than my Dad. Dad isn't aggressively racist but very passively racist. I continually pull him up on it.

The most amazing thing is that my wife is Jamaican. Chinese Jamaican! He loves her and the kids and is a little sheepish when I pull him up on his "passive" comments, followed by a "Shall I send the wife and kids back too?"
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I'm a very young 74 year old, mate. It was always going to be difficult to be an International Marxist and a racist at the same time!
 
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As others have said we're all individuals, so you can't really say a group of fans are racist or not.

Seeing as it's half term for football, below is a great TED talk from a chap called Rich Benjamin who visited the whitest towns(statistically) in America and lived in them for around a year.

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If you don't want to watch the video. His conclusion is that on an individual basis the world is a lot less racist than it's ever been but as a collective and a society we're still subconsciously discriminating against people of colour.
 
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My dad (77) is mixed race, however he has on occasion referred to various people from the Indian sub-continent as " that Paki bloke/woman"
I think it is probably because his mum came to the country in 1932 from South Africa and my dad was born in the UK and so felt fairly established in Britain. The subsequent immigration of people from the west indies, Uganda after Amin dispossessed it's Asian population plus Indian and Pakistani immigrants were seen by him to be interlopers "taking our jobs" which is ludicrous on the face of it, but also showed how quickly my dad felt assimilated into Britain and the value system prevalent in the 50s and 60s.
I pull him up on it sometimes, and he has the good grace to look sheepish.
My mum's cousin married a guy from Pakistan so it must have been a constant trial for him to watch his words when we went to their house <laugh>
.
 
When I think about my younger days and the language we used to describe any one that turned out not to be English. It is no wonder the term racialism was invented.
Do you know though I cannot think of any of my friends that had a particular dislike for some one who wasn't English or English looking. We used to joke with our coloured friends about their colour just as they would joke about ours. I was proud to say I was even a best man at the wedding of my Indian friend as I was to a Jamaican friends wedding.
I some times feel though that some of this so called political correctness has gone way over the top. Maybe it is a generation thing I don't know but being called a racist because of an expression or saying which to my mind should not offend anyone nor would I want to.
I can think of plenty of other ways to offend someone without the need to bringing race or creed into it!!
As for Saints fans...... I have heard the odd remark that in today's language would be deemed as racist but knowing the perpetrator would not be meant as such. So why is it so to other people? I guess it is because the minority that do mean it as an insult set the standard for the rest of us perhaps?
 
Beddytare said:
When I think about my younger days and the language we used to describe any one that turned out not to be English. It is no wonder the term racialism was invented.
Do you know though I cannot think of any of my friends that had a particular dislike for some one who wasn't English or English looking. We used to joke with our coloured friends about their colour just as they would joke about ours. I was proud to say I was even a best man at the wedding of my Indian friend as I was to a Jamaican friends wedding.
I some times feel though that some of this so called political correctness has gone way over the top. Maybe it is a generation thing I don't know but being called a racist because of an expression or saying which to my mind should not offend anyone nor would I want to.
I can think of plenty of other ways to offend someone without the need to bringing race or creed into it!!
As for Saints fans...... I have heard the odd remark that in today's language would be deemed as racist but knowing the perpetrator would not be meant as such. So why is it so to other people? I guess it is because the minority that do mean it as an insult set the standard for the rest of us perhaps?
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I think Beddytare that could come down to the difference between passive and aggressive racism.
 
Beddytare said:
Strewth mate...... Don't complicate it any more for me. I have trouble enough as it is understanding it.
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See, the use of the word "Strewth" is clearly a passive attack at my great, great, great, great Uncle Bruce's friend's neighbour, who was deported to Melbourne all those centuries ago .... :)
 
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Beddytare said:
Heavy, man heavy.
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It could have been heavier. I've always been a Marxist (in my mother's milk presumably) and get heartily naffed off with people asking me to defend Stalin, for example. I can't. He was an evil murdering bastard and has nothing to do with my beliefs
 
Lambo is a scouser - rejoice! said:
Never confuse the Soviets with Marxism. It's like confusing the Spanish Inquisition with Christianity.
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I take your point. However, the Soviet Union is far from the only example of applied Marxism quickly morphing into tyranny. It's hard to think of anywhere in the world where Marx was venerated that didn't exhibit contempt for humanity. Marx himself would have been appalled I'm sure, but that doesn't alter the evidence.

As for the Christian comparison, for every Torquemada I can show you a Martin Luther King. For every Joe Stalin you can show who? Mao Tse Tung? Fidel Castro? Pol Pot? Where is the evidence of Marxism in practice being a force for good? Marx's analysis of history and of 19th century capitalism was brilliant, and still relevent today. But have a look at the record; it doesn't stand up too well.
 
Archers Road said:
I take your point. However, the Soviet Union is far from the only example of applied Marxism quickly morphing into tyranny. It's hard to think of anywhere in the world where Marx was venerated that didn't exhibit contempt for humanity. Marx himself would have been appalled I'm sure, but that doesn't alter the evidence.

As for the Christian comparison, for every Torquemada I can show you a Martin Luther King. For every Joe Stalin you can show who? Mao Tse Tung? Fidel Castro? Pol Pot? Where is the evidence of Marxism in practice being a force for good? Marx's analysis of history and of 19th century capitalism was brilliant, and still relevent today. But have a look at the record; it doesn't stand up too well.
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Didn't he win Britain's got talent
 
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Archers Road said:
I take your point. However, the Soviet Union is far from the only example of applied Marxism quickly morphing into tyranny. It's hard to think of anywhere in the world where Marx was venerated that didn't exhibit contempt for humanity. Marx himself would have been appalled I'm sure, but that doesn't alter the evidence.

As for the Christian comparison, for every Torquemada I can show you a Martin Luther King. For every Joe Stalin you can show who? Mao Tse Tung? Fidel Castro? Pol Pot? Where is the evidence of Marxism in practice being a force for good? Marx's analysis of history and of 19th century capitalism was brilliant, and still relevent today. But have a look at the record; it doesn't stand up too well.
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Sadly man's quest for power and sheer greed tends to get in the way of principles. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely ......."
 
Society needs checks and balances. The problem with Marxist states (as with all tyrannies) is the lack of challenge available. The people at the top think there is only one way and demonise the opposition. These are characteristics shared by the far left and far right...who actually are very similar to each other....they have a sense of righteousness that means they feel able to deny freedom to others as they know best.
 
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When I shall tread upon the tyrants head or wear it on my sword, yet my poor country shall have more vices than it had before, more suffer, and more sundry ways, than ever, by him that that shall succeed.

Shakespeare knew.
 
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