David Cameron's so called tough approach on the UK's demands re the EU is transparently weak. He's spent the last 6 months telling everyone for domestic consumption that he'll be recommending we stay in the EU, completely undermining his negotiating position with the other 27 member states. They must be laughing behind his back. Leaving aside - the critical immigration issues - the benefits that immigrants from the EU states are entitled to upon landing on UK soil - the powers that have been taken from Parliament in favour of undemocratic institutions on the continent - what I cannot get my head around is how anyone can believe that the Euro-block, which will be a club within a club with massive voting influence, will not strip London of its influences, undermining the crucial financial services industry, in favour of a centralised Euro financial centre - probably Frankfurt. It make me think that if Cameron convinces the public at the forthcoming referendum that we should stay in the EU, it will not be the end of the matter. This issue will be a running sore - but at least Cameron can trot off with his legacy intact
My thoughts exactly. Cameron has set his aims so low that he will be able to tell us all that he has achieved his renegotiations. I will be voting to leave the bloated, undemocratic, corrupt EU no matter what.
There's a huge amount of scepticism about Cameron's tactics and true objectives. Everyone knows he'll get precious little from his fellow European leaders, and if he arrives back at Heathrow waving a piece of paper like Chamberlain at Munich, he'll get stick from every direction! I'm voting out too, mostly because being tied to club rules as a second-class member, when realistically, we'll get sod all say in those rules, is the worst of all worlds for this country
Whether any of the politicians involved like it or not it is immigration that will be a decisive factor in the way people will vote. The inexorable march across Europe threatens the stability of the entire union and we all know who will be expected to bear the cost...
Good that you accept no matter what, Europe is not to blame for the most disparaging country in terms of quality of life and opportunities. UK was too late going in and will be too fast in leaving. A solid restructuring is on the way and contrary to what Boris is leaving in your head, the UK wont be coming back, not easily anyway. At least most of the square mile scheisters will be out of a job, problem is those of you they take with them and you in all likelihood don't have the resources they have to still flourish.
The 2 million Brits living elsewhere in the EU are entitled to the benefits where they live. Are you going to forcibly repatriate them or send their cheques abroad when we leave the EU? The City, capitalists whining about competition, brilliant. If it's so good it will thrive, largely because it is protected by our government. Nationalism coupled with capitalism doesn't work, capitalism is the driving force of globalisation. Show me the money! I agree that if we stay in after a referendum that's not the end of it, we will never be wholehearted members and will never get the full benefit of really being in the club, or face the risks that entails. It may well be that the whole thing collapses under current pressures anyway, the U.K. is just a sideshow, sitting on the edge shouting and looking alternately smug and scared, as always.
There'd have to be transitional arrangements, quid pro quo, since the UK obviously has citizens from member states living here. In the end, a UK citizen living in France or Germany will have the same rights as they would living in Norway, or Canada or New Zealand
UK Citizens living in Norway have the same Economic rights now as living in France or Germany as all are in the EEA. Are you suggesting someone who lived in the UK and earn pension rights there should forfeit it because they now live in the EEA or anywhere else for that matter? For me the errors that the UK have made since they joined the EU is that they have never joined 100%. Once the decision was made to join they should have committed fully, been one of the main drivers of it, not moaners, and gone with the major decisions in favour or not like the €uro and Schengen. Whatever its faults the EU has given relative peace in these countries for many years compared to the 2 World Wars and numerous other wars that were regular in this area before it was formed. That above all else is worth maintaining.
Looking "alternately smug and scared"? Don't think so! The EU is becoming more and more splintered and could well collapse before we have our say on staying in or not. As you know, I will vote to leave, even if I'm sure it would be better financially to stay in. It's purely a sovereignty thing for me. If Britain (and probably that won't include Scotland going forward) struggles outside the EU then so be it. At least we will be self-governing. Having said that I am confident that we will be absolutely fine going it alone, after an initial period of uncertainty following our exit. .
I'm not sure you have any idea what "resources" I may or may not have mate. Britain has flourished for hundreds of years without the "help" of this wonderful super-state. She will flourish again outside of this growing political union.
No financial rights that have been earned by citizens should be lost. It should not be beyond the wit of the bureaucrats to ensure this. It is simply against the psyche of many, quite possibly the majority of, people in this island nation to give away independence and sovereignty. The UK joined the EEC, a free trading area between member states that respected each other and gained mutual benefits from the club. In my view, this alone would have been more than adequate to discourage members of the club to declare war against each other. It is the misguided attempts by some Continental European countries to convert this into one single legal entity that is causing many of the problems. The resentment that the Greeks have for the Germans will take years to diminish. The disdain that many member states have for Greek governance and the need for the bail-out is obvious. Portugual is now looking at though it may be the next Greece. The Euro nations are all being led by the nose by a financially powerful and instinctively autocratic Germany. Schengen has made the migration epidemic to Europe from Africa worse than it is. And all these changes have been driven though (largely by Germany and France) at break-neck speed with no respect for centuries of history of sovereign nations. I am in favour of Europe, of good relations with all the nations on the continent of Europe, but not the crumbling tower of the EU. If, as I hope, the UK votes to leave the EU, I am sure that all parties will act like responsible professionals to ensure that there are good relations (including culturally, politically, financially and militarily) between the UK and the EU.
The "you" is a rhetorical reference aimed at the vast majority of the population striving honestly to get by - nothing aimed at any one person's situation. The "wonderful super-state" isn't wonderful, and why it is and will change. Your absolutely right though that Britain will flourish again, with or without Europe - not sure about the vast majority of Britons flourishing.
Smug - some of the comments I've heard about the wave of refugees hitting continental Europe Scared - some of the comments I heard about Romanian and Bulgarian migration to UK Just read the right wing press for daily examples of each, and as we have a right wing government it's an easy step to transpose these stances. Interestingly the Mail and Express today are both attributing the UKs current economic performance (positive, apparently) to immigration (in their eyes a negative). I respect your view Col because it's based on a principle, one that I don't share but I understand. It's a coherent position, I just wish that many of those who try to build (ir)rational arguments about leaving (there are plenty of rational arguments about reform, the EU is a mess in many ways) would be more honest and say "We want out because we don't like the concept and we never will". Even if Cameron had a much more fundamental reform programme to negotiate and was successful, people like Bill Cash and Jacob Rees Mogg wouldn't be happy. I hope the EU doesn't collapse under the pressure of a humanitarian crisis, and I really hope we don't see the true colours of some Brits who will crow about it and take delight in the suffering that will follow. The net result in the short term is that we have a crippled opposition due to its leadership decision and a close to crippled government with a small majority and a chunk of its supporters preparing to hold it to ransom on this issue. Not good for the country. And the bookies still have it odds on that we will vote to stay in a referendum, which as Goldie says won't finish the argument by any means.
Given how spectacularly wrong they got it at the polls in May I might have to lump on a pulling out vote!
What I think is most likely to swing the vote towards staying in - or pulling out - is fear. There's going to be a lot of promises, rhetoric and denial on both sides of the argument, but it'll likely boil down to a choice between fear of the unknown should we go it alone, against fear of the status quo getting 'worse'. Will we continue to have zero control over our borders, leading to millions of migrants and ISIS terrorists flooding our shores? Will we lose the ability to trade on a fair basis with our largest market? Will we expose ourselves to ever-increasing bail-out bills as one by one the poorer nations of the EU fall? Will we suffer higher prices, leading to runaway inflation and a recession making us each poorer than we are now? That's just a few questions off the top of my head that people may ask. The level of fear people have over the answers will dictate how they vote.
