Off Topic 12 dead in paris shooting

[TimPR78]

Nice one Tim, and welcome to the board. Anyone who quotes CH is okay with me. Watch out for Uber, though - he supports his wicked brother.

Thanks Stroller, Peter Hitchens had his place, usually in Christophers pockets in debates seeing those two in a debate always amused me. Yeah Hitch was amazing, got most of his books and even a 'Hitchslap' t-shirt somewhere. Be interesting to know what Hitch would be saying over the recent sad events, I certainly don't have the answers, just know I'm glad I was brought up with an open mind and able to draw my own conclusions, through life experience, education and personal research, sadly this isn't the case with the fundies

 

[Swords Hoopster.]

Hitchens was an intellectual colossus Tim but he shamelessly supported the Iraq war just to curry favour with his new compatriots, the Americans. Anytime Bush was ridiculed for being an idiot, Hitchens defended him in a clear attempt to look every bit the real American patriot. He even used to say that no American should mock their President in such a way. He had some neck on him. He could mock whom he liked.

The zeal of the convert is always apparent. Ever meet an ex-smoker?

 

[thisismyengland]

'Name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever. And here is my second challenge. Can any reader of this column think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith?' The late, great Christopher Hitchens. It's sad that so many suffer because some people can't have their beliefs questioned (or can't handle the answers). I find it strange that SOME theists find it easy to cast off the possibility of anybody elses 'god' but can't tollerate it when people do the same to theirs. Freedom of speach is alive, it's sad that people have to die for it

Are you the Tim who used to sit/stand in the R Block from time to time?

 

[TimPR78]

Hitchens was an intellectual colossus Tim but he shamelessly supported the Iraq war just to curry favour with his new compatriots, the Americans. Anytime Bush was ridiculed for being an idiot, Hitchens defended him in a clear attempt to look every bit the real American patriot. He even used to say that no American should mock their President in such a way. He had some neck on him. He could mock whom he liked.

The zeal of the convert is always apparent. Ever meet an ex-smoker?

Can't disagree with you, don't agree with Hitch on everything, some things I think he got wrong and as you have pointed out, on occasions for his own agenda. However in my opinion he got a lot of important thing right, tore Mother T a new one and rightfully so

 

[TimPR78]

Are you the Tim who used to sit/stand in the R Block from time to time?

I expect it's a different Tim, however I have been in the R Block on several occasions, last time v Burnley this season for my daughters first game, that was a long day, stood out in the cold for about 2 hours whilst I made her get their autographs and have pics. Worth it and a nice victory

 

[Swords Hoopster.]

By the way Tim, I notice you've just joined last week. Its great to have you posting mate

 

[TimPR78]

Thanks Swords, been a viewer for a while and a long suffering fan for longer than I like to remember. Thought I should jump in as I hve my views on whats wrong and right in the club, sadly most of my posts have been off topic!

 

[thisismyengland]

I expect it's a different Tim, however I have been in the R Block on several occasions, last time v Burnley this season for my daughters first game, that was a long day, stood out in the cold for about 2 hours whilst I made her get their autographs and have pics. Worth it and a nice victory

Ah, OK. Your username made me ask. I wondered if you work in PR. The guy I'm thinking of does something in PR/lobbying. That sort of malarkey.

 

[TimPR78]

Not me, however there does seen to be a lot of Tim's in the QPR fanbase a lot of long suffering Tim's. Oh well I will just go and watch OBZ's goal again to cheer me up

 

[rangercol]

I had a Jehovah's Witness at the door today. He was a very amiable guy and we had a brilliant chat for around 20 minutes. I told him that I don't believe in a religious God and he told me what he believed, including Adam and Eve. We had some agreement too on some things concerning the Universe etc. We didn't agree on much else to do with how Humans came about etc.
However, not at any time did he try to kill me because I didn't believe in his God and I didn't feel the urge to try to kill him because he believed in something different to myself.
We parted with mutual respect.

 

[thisismyengland]

not at any time did he try to kill me because I didn't believe in his God

He didn't try to kill you and I think we can assume wanting to kill you didn't even cross his mind. He has that in common with 99.99999999999999999% of the Muslims you've ever spoken to, whoever they might be - doctor, dentist, work colleague, neighbour, cab driver, shopkeeper etc. Maybe even 100%.

 

[rangercol]

He didn't try to kill you and I think we can assume wanting to kill you didn't even cross his mind. He has that in common with 99.99999999999999999% of the Muslims you've ever spoken to, whoever they might be - doctor, dentist, work colleague, neighbour, cab driver, shopkeeper etc. Maybe even 100%.

I completely agree.
However, to not accept that it is mainly Muslim extremists who DO want to kill those who don't share their beliefs is to put one's head firmly in the sand imo. From memory, past polls have showed that 40% of Muslims in this Country would like Sharia Law and 40% sympathised with the 7/7 bombings. There is a problem and it needs to be addressed, even though the vast majority of Muslims are, as you say peace loving individuals.
Those same peace loving Muslims that you describe need to be more vocal in their condemnation of atrocities carried out in the name of their religion imo.

 

[durbar2003]

A French police commissioner has reportedly taken his own life after meeting the relatives of a victim murdered in the Charlie Hebdo massacre. Helric Fredou, 45, shot himself in his office on Wednesday night in Limoges, a city in central France. according to France 3. Commissioner Fredou began his career as a police office in 1997 and had been the deputy director of the regional police since 2012.

 

[thisismyengland]

Those same peace loving Muslims that you describe need to be more vocal in their condemnation of atrocities carried out in the name of their religion imo.

When I read this - especially the words "need to" - I'm reminded of the feeling I get when some people hint strongly at the idea that British Jews with no family or business ties to Israel "need to" feel or act apologetic every time that country's security forces do something bloody awful. Or the feeling I get when I go abroad and sense that someone has an issue with my Britishness because of this country's role in various ill-advised military adventures (Iraq, Afghanistan etc.). I find all these ideas equally bogus.

 

[rangercol]

When I read this - especially the words "need to" - I'm reminded of the feeling I get when some people hint strongly at the idea that British Jews with no family or business ties to Israel "need to" feel or act apologetic every time that country's security forces do something bloody awful. Or the feeling I get when I go abroad and sense that someone has an issue with my Britishness because of this country's role in various ill-advised military adventures (Iraq, Afghanistan etc.). I find all these ideas equally bogus.

I think there is a problem. I think it would help to reduce the amount of Muslims who are being radicalised if more peace loving Muslims came out against the extremists.
If you don't, that's fine and you're entitled to your opinion. I also think that we in the West have contributed to the problem. I don't however think that it's all our fault.

We'll agree to differ.

 

[durbar2003]

I guess you guys know that its not ALL Muslims sects that have the problems with the west but the SUNNI Muslims. This is why countries like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi are also against the Jihadist Sunnis.

 

[thisismyengland]

We'll agree to differ.

Yes, let's. Because the average Muslim British citizen (Turkish guy born in Dalston and running his dad's kebab shop; prosperous home counties GP of Bangladeshi extraction who's active in his local Labour, Lib Dem, Tory [or even UKIP] constituency party; ambitious A-level student of Pakistani origin who's keen to get a good job in IT and whose taste in clothes and music is no different to his Anglo-Saxon schoolmates) has more in common with you and me than he does with some raving lunatic who wants to kill Jews, journalists, police officers or soldiers. He ticks a different box for "religion" when he has to fill out a form. He dresses and dances a bit differently when he goes to a family wedding. He swerves bacon sarnies (as do a ton of people to whom I'm related). But other than that he's pretty much like you and I.

 

[bobmid]

Yes, let's. Because the average Muslim British citizen (Turkish guy born in Dalston and running his dad's kebab shop; prosperous home counties GP of Bangladeshi extraction who's active in his local Labour, Lib Dem, Tory [or even UKIP] constituency party; ambitious A-level student of Pakistani origin who's keen to get a good job in IT and whose taste in clothes and music is no different to his Anglo-Saxon schoolmates) has more in common with you and me than he does with some raving lunatic who wants to kill Jews, journalists, police officers or soldiers. He ticks a different box for "religion" when he has to fill out a form. He dresses and dances a bit differently when he goes to a family wedding. He swerves bacon sarnies (as do a ton of people to whom I'm related). But other than that he's pretty much like you and I.

I think that the people you describe above are the ones col is meaning to stand up and be heard. Obviously these terrorists aren't wired up mentally right but still are fighting and murdering in the name of their religion. I personally don't do political correctness and all that ****. This country has gone to pots cos we are a soft touch.

 

[thisismyengland]

I think that the people you describe above are the ones col is meaning to stand up and be heard. Obviously these terrorists aren't wired up mentally right but still are fighting and murdering in the name of their religion. I personally don't do political correctness and all that ****. This country has gone to pots cos we are a soft touch.

Serious question about moral equivalence coming up.

Israel is a Jewish state. As a nation state, it pursues its foreign policy and military adventures with the protection (and even expansion) of a Jewish homeland in mind. When this includes the bombing of civilians or some other nastiness, should British Jews "stand up and be heard" to condemn these actions? i.e. should they feel OBLIGED to do so? If so, why? If not, why not? I'm interested to know how you think the two cases are similar or different.

 

[bobmid]

My brother is deputy head at a school where he says the Muslim boys are revelling in what's happened in Paris and no amount of talking to them changes their attitudes. It is most disturbing for youngsters to think like that.