Lapras and Taylor's NFL 2014 chat thread

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Dan said:
Yeah you're going to need a better argument than just reeling off stats. "Making a Super Bowl" doesn't make you a good QB. Flacco vs Kaepernick was certainly not a battle of the two best quarterbacks, and Luck is a better player than Wilson who made it last year - even most Seahawks fans will admit that now.

I'm also careful to avoid the use of the word "elite" because it's meaningless and subjective, but nobody would be stupid enough to argue Luck's career is on par with Brady or Manning, similarly you should avoid including Rodgers next to those two at this point. If Rodgers falls off next year, then his career will have been nowhere near as good as Brady and Manning, who are definitely going down as two of the best of all time no matter what happens next.

Luck is a top 5 QB without a doubt if you're going on who is better right now. Brady, Rodgers and Manning are all in that tier of "definitely top five" with Luck, which is why I include him as a top tier QB. You can't make a valid argument for any QB other than those three to be better than Luck is right now, and if you had to pick one player to start a franchise with, then I'm pretty sure I know who 99% of people would pick.

Your insinuations that Luck hasn't been good in his first two years are ridiculous, so I won't bother addressing them because everybody was gushing over him before this year, and rightly so - oh, and please, never use passer rating as an argument to settle any issue ever again. It's a meaningless stat that nobody of any merit ever takes seriously.
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If you wont listen to stats, what arguement is there to prove he is or isnt a top 5 QB? Is it just because you say so?

I didnt say that simply making a Super Bowl instantly makes you a good Quarter Back, but it certainly helps. After all most people agree that the NFL is a QB league and without a better than average QB, a team will struggle. Case in point the Bears this year (12INT already compared to 12 all last year). Cowboys when Romo chokes compared to this year.

I used elite because the definition is superior in ability to others. So its only as subjective as saying anyone is better than anyother person. You saying that Luck is a top 5 QB is your subjective opinion. I would never say that Rodgers is better than Manning (however much I dont like Peyton) or Brady. He is great and as a Packers fan I love him, but Brady and Manning are simply better.

Just because people are gushing over him, doesnt mean they are right. Just look at the hype over the Seahawks this season, look at how players are dubbed potential world beaters when they are drafted and then flop ala RG3. Luck could continue on this road this season, but there is no guarantee that he will have a repeat season next year. He could be decidedly average next year. What then? Is he still the wonder boy whilst others are winning more games and making more completions and scoring more TDs?

Im sorry for using the Passer rating, but as every pundit I have heard and every fan I've spoken to have all used it I thought it was ok. I forgot I should bow to you and praise your all knowing.
 
I hope Cowboys lose their game, having Pitbull as their half time entertainment means they deserve it.
 
Alright, the battle for the most interceptions is upcoming, Stafford has throws at least 2 in the past gazillion games at home and Cutler has more turnovers than someone with Parkinson's disease. This game could go either way.
 
And there is the clincher, Cutler throws the INT and it's 1-1 in turnovers, or I must've missed one when I grabbed a cup of coffee.

Calvin Johnson and Golden Tate have been brilliant tonight, Lions deservedly win tonight.
 
babyhornetdan said:
If you wont listen to stats, what arguement is there to prove he is or isnt a top 5 QB? Is it just because you say so?

I didnt say that simply making a Super Bowl instantly makes you a good Quarter Back, but it certainly helps. After all most people agree that the NFL is a QB league and without a better than average QB, a team will struggle. Case in point the Bears this year (12INT already compared to 12 all last year). Cowboys when Romo chokes compared to this year.

I used elite because the definition is superior in ability to others. So its only as subjective as saying anyone is better than anyother person. You saying that Luck is a top 5 QB is your subjective opinion. I would never say that Rodgers is better than Manning (however much I dont like Peyton) or Brady. He is great and as a Packers fan I love him, but Brady and Manning are simply better.

Just because people are gushing over him, doesnt mean they are right. Just look at the hype over the Seahawks this season, look at how players are dubbed potential world beaters when they are drafted and then flop ala RG3. Luck could continue on this road this season, but there is no guarantee that he will have a repeat season next year. He could be decidedly average next year. What then? Is he still the wonder boy whilst others are winning more games and making more completions and scoring more TDs?

Im sorry for using the Passer rating, but as every pundit I have heard and every fan I've spoken to have all used it I thought it was ok. I forgot I should bow to you and praise your all knowing.
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Go on then, build an actual argument for two players (other than Manning, Brady and Rodgers) being objectively better than Luck this season. As consensus opinion is that Luck is the #4 QB in the league this season, the burden of proof is on you.

Obviously a good QB helps a team to become a good better, which er is why Colts went from 2-14 to three consecutive playoff seasons when Luck joined the team? Improvement is a better metric than simply success.

I'm not sure what argument you're making there? It doesn't explain the word "elite" but yes, I agree Manning and Brady are better than Rodgers, but they are all obviously the top three QBs.

That seems like conjecture rather than an actual argument. "What if he's average next season" has no impact on evaluating how good he is right now - what if Brady throws five interceptions a game next season? Better not put him in the top five of the present just in case. Base your arguments on what has actually happened rather than on what could potentially happen in the future.

Ooh goody, pundits and fans!!! How many coaches or players have you ever heard talk about it like it's something that matters? Why do so many outlets (most notably ESPN) try to devise new systems because of how broken the current system is? Why do the Manning vs Brady arguments not end at "well, Peyton has a higher passer rating than Brady so there's nothing else to discuss"? Oh right, maybe because proper evaluation goes further than an attempted objectification based on flawed calculation.
 
Dan said:
Go on then, build an actual argument for two players (other than Manning, Brady and Rodgers) being objectively better than Luck this season. As consensus opinion is that Luck is the #4 QB in the league this season, the burden of proof is on you.

Obviously a good QB helps a team to become a good better, which er is why Colts went from 2-14 to three consecutive playoff seasons when Luck joined the team? Improvement is a better metric than simply success.

I'm not sure what argument you're making there? It doesn't explain the word "elite" but yes, I agree Manning and Brady are better than Rodgers, but they are all obviously the top three QBs.

That seems like conjecture rather than an actual argument. "What if he's average next season" has no impact on evaluating how good he is right now - what if Brady throws five interceptions a game next season? Better not put him in the top five of the present just in case. Base your arguments on what has actually happened rather than on what could potentially happen in the future.

Ooh goody, pundits and fans!!! How many coaches or players have you ever heard talk about it like it's something that matters? Why do so many outlets (most notably ESPN) try to devise new systems because of how broken the current system is? Why do the Manning vs Brady arguments not end at "well, Peyton has a higher passer rating than Brady so there's nothing else to discuss"? Oh right, maybe because proper evaluation goes further than an attempted objectification based on flawed calculation.
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So far your thesis that Luck is a top 5 QB is based on 'Everyone accepts ma boy as a top 5 QB this year'. You're a numpty. Don't even bother BHD, if he doesn't accept the stats because there isn't a proper one then it doesn't matter what you say he'll keep stating that over and over. You can't win an arguement when the opposition doesn't accept facts and instead goes with his own interpretation of reality. He's a narrowminded bigot.
 
Dan said:
You know less about football than any self-professed fan I've ever encountered but I'm going to humour you just this one. What kind of "stats" do you want? I'm a firm believer in stats not telling nearly the whole story but he's first in passing yards, third in TDs behind Manning and Rodgers, are those not important stats? Joint second for rushing TDs to add to that? What about being joint second all time for wins in his first two seasons, despite inheriting a 2-14 team? I don't trust you know enough about him, or evaluating the position, or anything about the sport in general to bother with a subjective argument and film reviews, but by all means, I invite you to present me full, balanced and well informed arguments on two players not named Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning as being better than Andrew Luck at this moment in time.
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Blablabla more insults and ad hominems. What a surprise. I'm not even going to dignify that with an answer.
 
Sanchez made a nice fake for a 2 yd TD. Dick would never pull that one off!

Go Eagles!!
 
The thing is with the Eagles, I really want to see them as SB contenders, but then you see their defence and Mark Sanchez... I can't help but feel that they're a butt fumble away from complete meltdown. Like in the game against the Packers. McCoy, Maclin, Cooper, Ertz, that's a pretty good offence.
 
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