Will Vettels championships hold less value?

[Delete Me]

What? Are you serious?

Yes I am serious, the Red Bull is strongest in qualifying pace but not the strongest in race pace. Yet somehow on all sides with other fans they say it must be a dominant car to the equal of a FW14B and everybody else is driving a reliant robin. We are looking at tenths that seperate these cars, not seconds, so why is Sebastian the only person leaving the rest behind?


Webber is just as good as last year same with Jenson, it's just Lewis and Alonso have walked into so much trouble and have cost them valuable points. The gap would be closer if it wasn't for their mistakes so why should the 77+ points buffer be soley on just the car? Lewis could of been 30 points behind Vettel heading into this weekend if it wasnt for his mistakes and team brain fades at almost every GP.

I don't like being told what I know or what I think, Silver - smacks too much of one of Manny's rants. In my opinion there is not a cat in hell's chance that Vettel has improved over last season by the magnitude of 77 points lead in eight races. And, with respect, I don't find any of your other arguments convincing or plausible so I think that's why you "have to keep saying it..."

Fair enough, i'll try to be less Manny

If you want to think what the majority of fans say fine by me, but I'll listen to Newey and Horner saying it isn't just the car but the whole team.

 

[tomcat606]

Again you misunderstand, tomcat. I'm not asking whether he's serious about Newey designing championship winning cars at Williams, McLaren and Red Bull, but whether he's serious about needing proof that the RB7 is a front-runner.

I see. Still it shows that it needs more than Adrian Newey to win. I wouldnt underestimate the influx of the driver regarding design. And it seems Vettel does a good job at helping Newey to get the best out of a car.

 

[genjigonzales]

If you want to think what the majority of fans say fine by me, but I'll listen to Newey and Horner saying it isn't just the car but the whole team.

Don't tell me what it is I think. I think what I think based on the evidence before me, thanks very much, and twisting your argument from Vettel's lead in the WCC being the result of his own magnificence to being down to the whole team isn't making your point any clearer.

Perhaps if you didn't confine your perception of the situation to Newey's and Horner's PR-speak you might at least consider the possibility that everyone else is right and you're wrong.

 

[genjigonzales]

I see. Still it shows that it needs more than Adrian Newey to win. I wouldnt underestimate the influx of the driver regarding design. And it seems Vettel does a good job at helping Newey to get the best out of a car.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that (except 'influx' ). I just don't don't believe a) the RB7 is not a significant step up from the RB6 and b) Vettel's dominance is entirely due to how much improved he is over last season. He's clearly driving better this year - more confident, fewer big mistakes, and (I don't doubt) better at giving feedback to his engineers. But to ask "where's the proof" that the RB7 is a front-runner...

 

[Delete Me]

Don't tell me what it is I think. I think what I think based on the evidence before me, thanks very much, and twisting your argument from Vettel's lead in the WCC being the result of his own magnificence to being down to the whole team isn't making your point any clearer.

Perhaps if you didn't confine your perception of the situation to Newey's and Horner's PR-speak you might at least consider the possibility that everyone else is right and you're wrong.

I do take it into account genji that I might be wrong. But it seems people don't admit that Lewis and Alonso have messed up many times this season and put themselves into a big hole.

You say it's the RB7, I says it's the other drivers ****ing up too much.

 

[Mclarwum]

4:Can't take the pressure, (Spain:No KERS from time to time, Lewis behind him using KERS and DRS. Monaco: Worn tyres, Alonso and Jenson behind him with fresher rubber. Canada: Apart from 1 mistake he controlled anybody that got close, Valencia: Held the gap through the entire race.)

Hi Silver

Just to grab one snippet from an otherwise great post in favour of Vettel:

I think pressure, or the lack of from other drivers, is a key thing for Vettel to cement his place at the "top". Generally speaking, he has the luxury of not having to push as hard as the other drivers, which means he is not on the limit 100% of the time. Using this point - I am going to take the 4 examples you give and suggest a different perspective:

Spain - While he had no KERS, he was generally never in danger because of his cars far superior traction in that last corner. Hamilton was constantly playing catch up through the whole lap and then, on the last corner, Vettel just powered away leaving Lewis with no chance of an overtake.

However, I concede he performed well to make no mistakes to allow Lewis past but were he in any other car, he would of easily lost 1st place.

Monaco - Impossible to argue against a very brave call on the one stop. However he was there for the taking, Alonso would of made a move and the result was either a place lost or game over for them both = Button win. If Alonso stuck a pass, Button could of made a move with similar outcomes.

Vettel was saved by the red flag and the ridiculous tyre change, not his driving under pressure.

Valencia - He was never under pressure the entire race, not to the extent he had to wring the cars neck. Maybe I perceive it incorrectly but everyone has their own point of view

Canada - This for me was the one race he's been put under true pressure and to say he cracked is perhaps harsh, but he certainly made a mistake. Two in fact:

1) Button was flying and caught him, the pressure was real and the result clear to see.
2) Vettel was, by his own admision, over cautious in not pulling a bigger gap out earlier. I think this may of been over confidence in his belief noone can catch him in that car.

There are lots of arguments for and against his being a great, worthy of our top 1,2,3 status but I think it is too subjective at the moment. For me at least, until I see him race in a comparable car to the likes of Alonso/Hamilton/Mr Subjective top driver, he'll be very good just not great.

 

[Masanari]

Are people actually trying to argue that the Red Bull is not dominant?

They hardly have to try in quali to get the front row, they do generally have the best race pace, yes Mclaren on a few occasions have matched them and Ferrari are getting closer to them, but they are still the fastest car, it also helps that they can get pole with their eyes closed so they can just control the race in terms of strategy.

The last three Red Bull cars have got more and more dominant and Ferrari and Mclaren have made no real inroads against them, this does not mean Vettel is not a good driver before you get your knickers in a twist, this year he has taken full advantage of the car and pretty much drove a perfect season so far. However it also does not make him the next Schumacher because Hamilton, Alonso and even Button have not been able to compete against him on a more or less even keel, so I for one will reserve my judgement on how good Vettel really is until he have come down and fought them on more level terms.

Another pointed I think to show how good the RB7 is is the fact that Webber has struggled this season with reliabilty problems and with the tyres, and he is joint second in the championship.

Put it like this if the Ferrari, Mclaren and Red Bull were lined up and you could chose which car you would drive for the season you would jump in the Red Bull so fast that there would be a shadowy outline of you still standing there.

 

[genjigonzales]

I do take it into account genji that I might be wrong. But it seems people don't admit that Lewis and Alonso have messed up many times this season and put themselves into a bigger hole if.

You say it's the RB7, I says it's the other drivers ****ing up too much.

Points have been lost, no doubt, but it's plain daft to say Hamilton would have won this or that race if he hadn't driven like an amateur or he would be only thirty points behind Vettel if he'd driven perfectly. I'm not sure where Alonso personally has messed up.

I have no problem with you, as a fan, being in awe of Vettel's exceptional abilities. My opinion of him is slightly different and for you to say, "it isn't just the car and you all know it" - I'm sorry but I know no such thing for a fact. If this were a spec series my opinion is that Vettel would not be leading it so, effectively, it pretty much is all the car, albeit with him sat in it (i.e. he gets on with the car better than Webber in the same way he gets on with the tyres better than Webber). I'm not suggesting Karthikeyan or Yamamoto would be 77 points ahead of second place in the RB7 but I do believe the RB7 accounts for most of that lead.

 

[genjigonzales]

Put it like this if the Ferrari, Mclaren and Red Bull were lined up and you could chose which car you would drive for the season you would jump in the Red Bull so fast that there would be a shadowy outline of you still standing there.

Unless you're Fernando Alonso.

 

[Di Resta is faster than u]

Points have been lost, no doubt, but it's plain daft to say Hamilton would have won this or that race if he hadn't driven like an amateur or he would be only thirty points behind Vettel if he'd driven perfectly. I'm not sure where Alonso personally has messed up.

I have no problem with you, as a fan, being in awe of Vettel's exceptional abilities. My opinion of him is slightly different and for you to say, "it isn't just the car and you all know it" - I'm sorry but I know no such thing for a fact. If this were a spec series my opinion is that Vettel would not be leading it so, effectively, it pretty much is all the car, albeit with him sat in it (i.e. he gets on with the car better than Webber in the same way he gets on with the tyres better than Webber). I'm not suggesting Karthikeyan or Yamamoto would be 77 points ahead of second place in the RB7 but I do believe the RB7 accounts for most of that lead.

I think that is an excellent way of putting it genji,

I do think Vettel is doing the best job with the Pirellis this year, with the one exception of predicting what would happen in china.

I also agree that the RB7 would not look so dominant in the hands of Yammamoto, Karthikeyan, chandhok, Senna, Di Grassi, Liuzzi, Maldonado or dare I say it even the great Michael Schumacher.

But I think the car is so good there are plenty of other drivers who would be leading in it right now beside the obvious ones of Hamilton and Alonso: Rosberg, Kubica (ignoring injury), Kobayashi (imagine that eh), Sutil, Di Resta, probably Glock, maybe even Petrov and Heidfeld. I think any one of these drivers would be winning in it righ now, winnng and not dominating. Put it in the hands of Vettel, Hamilton or Alosno and you recieve the current domination.

And I do think Hamilton has let his impatience and temper get the better of him a couple too many times so far and had he fullfilled the full potential of himself and his car he would be a lot closer to Vettel, still behind, but closer. The McLaren could have potentially won China, Spain, Monte-Carlo and Canada.

I think it also should be taken into account - luck. Vettel has had the best of luck so far and Hamilton really hasn't.