Will Vettels championships hold less value?

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Cowboy:

Who could doubt that the world could be a better place than it is? I never thought myself worthy of such a role but I hereby swear that things could have been different. ;)

Sport is a microcosm of politics. And politics is, I hope; a microcosm of humanity.
 
SilverArrow said:
After half the season being done now, I've got a better clue regarding this likely WDC for Sebastian...

I think this WDC will hold more "respect" then his first WDC. He's obviously come of age and has gone to the next level, easily joining the top 3 drivers on the grid, maybe even surpassing 1 of them. Yes his car is one of the best on the field but Sebastian has used so many aces in is deck to silence the doubters when they pray he'll do the same mistakes like last year, no problems so far.

Usual quotes I hear:

1:He cant overtake, (Jenson at Australia, Massa at Malaysia, Lewis at China, Webber and Jenson at Spain.)

2:His starts are poor, (Has lead into the first corner 6/8 times, only China and Spain he hasn't.)

3:It's all the car, (Australia, Spain, Monaco, Canada, all great drives from Sebastian on tracks where other cars were quicker on race pace.)

4:Can't take the pressure, (Spain:No KERS from time to time, Lewis behind him using KERS and DRS. Monaco: Worn tyres, Alonso and Jenson behind him with fresher rubber. Canada: Apart from 1 mistake he controlled anybody that got close, Valencia: Held the gap through the entire race.)

5:Can't win when it doesn't go to plan, (Turkey: Lack of testing but still lands it on pole and wins, Spain: Alonso got infront and stopped Vettel getting away, throwing the stratergy out of the window. Monaco: Bad Pitstop but uses his head to win the race and still had rubber to keep going. Canada: No one had a plan here, he almost won but second was great since he lead the whole way before the last lap.)

I might be missing a few other "facts" that vettel has cast aside for this half of the season, and I'm sure he will keep doing it through the other half of the season. He's the real deal and nobody can say otherwise because lets be honest he isn't just beating everyone, he's destroying them, RB7 or no RB7.
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A spirited defence of Vettel, but for me Vettel's dominance is an illusion. It is the car's dominance, not the driver's. Vettel's car is so quick he can lock up and miss apexes and still get it on pole. You can tell by watching that Vettel is able to cruise round while those chasing are wringing the necks of their cars. Comparison with his team-mate is no longer valid in my eyes. When Webber thought that he was going to be allowed to fight for the championship there was hardly anything between them. As soon as Vettel swerved into Webber in Turkey and the whole team got behind Vettel, Webber knew the game was up. Now he is just dead wood, backing up the team's number one driver.

I'd also take issue with the so-called overtake on Button in Melbourne. Vettel needed to go off the track in order to get past Button, but was strangely not penalised.

When Vettel wins the driver's championship it should be Newey that goes to collect the trophy. Why the FIA let Red Bull get away with their movable aero device I will never know. The whole thing baffles me and I think it shames Formula 1, despite F1 being well known for its' rule bending and outright cheating already.
 
Basil_Brushzenberger said:
A spirited defence of Vettel, but for me Vettel's dominance is an illusion. It is the car's dominance, not the driver's. Vettel's car is so quick he can lock up and miss apexes and still get it on pole. You can tell by watching that Vettel is able to cruise round while those chasing are wringing the necks of their cars. Comparison with his team-mate is no longer valid in my eyes. When Webber thought that he was going to be allowed to fight for the championship there was hardly anything between them. As soon as Vettel swerved into Webber in Turkey and the whole team got behind Vettel, Webber knew the game was up. Now he is just dead wood, backing up the team's number one driver.

I'd also take issue with the so-called overtake on Button in Melbourne. Vettel needed to go off the track in order to get past Button, but was strangely not penalised.

When Vettel wins the driver's championship it should be Newey that goes to collect the trophy. Why the FIA let Red Bull get away with their movable aero device I will never know. The whole thing baffles me and I think it shames Formula 1, despite F1 being well known for its' rule bending and outright cheating already.
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I think you're totally belittling his skills this season, others up front have ballsed up more times than he has this season and they dont get half the public stick Seb does.

Webber is doing just as well as last year. The difference is Sebastian has improved and the "solution" for fans on the other side of the ring is that it must be the car. If it's the car, why hasn't Mark pulled a 30 point gap on Jenson and Lewis, there's no proof what so ever that it's just the car, it's a combination of Sebastian no longer doing silly mistakes and the new tyres as well. Every driver has said Sebastian has got on with the Pirelli's better than anybody through the first half of the season.

Regarding the overtake on Jenson, he was leading into the corner while Jenson was struggling for grip. Vettel was avoiding possible contact and not trying to get an advantage.

It's funny that nobody says Paddy Lowe or Ross Brawn should go collect Lewis or Jenson's WDC trophies. But hay it's always the car when Vettel's involved but it's never the case with the other WDC's, oh no! They all dug deep on "unfair grounds" and are real "racers".
 
I think you're totally belittling his skills this season, others up front have ballsed up more times than he has this season and they dont get half the public stick Seb does.

Webber is doing just as well as last year. The difference is Sebastian has improved and the "solution" for fans on the other side of the ring is that it must be the car. If it's the car, why hasn't Mark pulled a 30 point gap on Jenson and Lewis, there's no proof what so ever that it's just the car, it's a combination of Sebastian no longer doing silly mistakes and the new tyres as well. Every driver has said Sebastian has got on with the Pirelli's better than anybody through the first half of the season.

Regarding the overtake on Jenson, he was leading into the corner while Jenson was struggling for grip. Vettel was avoiding possible contact and not trying to get an advantage.

It's funny that nobody says Paddy Lowe or Ross Brawn should go collect Lewis or Jenson's WDC trophies. But hay it's always the car when Vettel's involved but it's never the case with the other WDC's, oh no! They all dug deep on "unfair grounds" and are real "racers".
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i think what BasilBrushzenburger is trying to say is that look at at 2010, mark webber is a mid-table driver and last year the rb6 turned him into a championship contender while vettel due to incidents both technical (bahrain, australia, and korea) and driver (turkey, silverstone, spa) made him lag behind webber.
vettel is obvisouly better than webber but is why he is so far ahead of the rest due to the car more than ability because webber is joint second and could leave the red bulls could leave the rest behind
 
SamLovesLeeds said:
i think what BasilBrushzenburger is trying to say is that look at at 2010, mark webber is a mid-table driver and last year the rb6 turned him into a championship contender while vettel due to incidents both technical (bahrain, australia, and korea) and driver (turkey, silverstone, spa) made him lag behind webber.
vettel is obvisouly better than webber but is why he is so far ahead of the rest due to the car more than ability because webber is joint second and could leave the red bulls could leave the rest behind
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Lewis' **** ups over this season have cost him points to Vettel, not because the RB7 is dominant. He would easily be 2nd in the championship and about 30-40 points behind Sebastian. He should of won Australia, Monaco and Canada, with Sebastian getting 2nd-3rd. So why do I hear more it's "just the car" and not enough the other "top drivers/teams" are just plain inconsitent.

Using Newey as the whole reason for this gets boring, every car he has designed hasn't always been a front runner, so where's the proof this one is? They only say it's dominant because Sebastian is leading the WDC while being consistant and plain faster than most.

It isn't just the car and you all know it, so why do I have to keep saying it...
 
it will have less value, even though some of the great drivers like senna, schumacher and mansell had dominant cars, they still proved that outside of a dominant position that they could battle head to head with other drivers in machinery which is at least fairly close in terms of pace.

i hope that hamilton does go to red bull in 2012 so that we can see who is fastest out of the two and the championship will be well fought, i say hamilton because in todays gossip column he has said that he will leave Mclaren if theu dont win the constructors, or if he doesn't win the title, plus his little "social meeting" with christian horner
 
Lewis' **** ups over this season
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tbh lewis screwed up last season
when i look more at last season the more i see that lewis could have won it
at the end of the 2010 season lewis was 16 points behind seb
he could easily got those points from monza and singapore if had not tried those overtakes
but hey that lewis and his exciting style
 
SamLovesLeeds said:
tbh lewis screwed up last season
when i look more at last season the more i see that lewis could have won it
at the end of the 2010 season lewis was 16 points behind seb
he could easily got those points from monza and singapore if had not tried those overtakes
but hey that lewis and his exciting style
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You call it exciting, I call it stupid.
 
SilverArrow said:
I think you're totally belittling his skills this season, others up front have ballsed up more times than he has this season and they dont get half the public stick Seb does.

Webber is doing just as well as last year. The difference is Sebastian has improved and the "solution" for fans on the other side of the ring is that it must be the car. If it's the car, why hasn't Mark pulled a 30 point gap on Jenson and Lewis, there's no proof what so ever that it's just the car, it's a combination of Sebastian no longer doing silly mistakes and the new tyres as well. Every driver has said Sebastian has got on with the Pirelli's better than anybody through the first half of the season.

Regarding the overtake on Jenson, he was leading into the corner while Jenson was struggling for grip. Vettel was avoiding possible contact and not trying to get an advantage.

It's funny that nobody says Paddy Lowe or Ross Brawn should go collect Lewis or Jenson's WDC trophies. But hay it's always the car when Vettel's involved but it's never the case with the other WDC's, oh no! They all dug deep on "unfair grounds" and are real "racers".
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Maybe I've been a bit harsh on Vettel. Maybe he wasn't trying to gain an advantage (while going off the track to overtake Button).

Say what you like, but Vettel would not have had the speed to overtake Button unless he went off track. He carried too much speed through the corner to stay on the track. He gained an advantage by going off the track. There is absolutely nothing that anyone can say that will convince of anything else, because I have seen the incident, and I know what I think about it.

Also I seem to remember that people have said "it was the car" about the last three world champions at least. They were probably saying it when Fangio was racing, so I have no idea where you are coming from there.

Has Vettel improved or does his style suit the tyres more than Webber's? Webber has expressed his difficulties with the tyres. Are those difficulties there because he has got worse as a driver?

Being honest I think that Vettel is obviously a very good driver, and deserves his place in Formula 1, but, really, Is he the best or just being flattered by the car? Nobody these days would say that Jaques Villeneuve was that good a driver, but he managed to win a world title. Vettel is probably better than Villeneuve, but how much better than Alonso, Hamilton, Button, Rosberg or even Kobayashi is he? I would say no better.
 
I would say Vettel has earned a place among the Hamilton/Alonso bracket that most people have at the top of their "driver tiers" But i would say that Webber isn't good enough for him to be placed higher. If the rumored (but denied) stuff about mark being replaced that could change.

Was Webber even that good last season. He had a far better reliability record than Vettel (3 victorys Vettel lost i think) and still finished behind him in the championship.
 
SilverArrow said:
every car he [Newey] has designed hasn't always been a front runner, so where's the proof this one is?
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What? Are you serious?

SilverArrow said:
It isn't just the car and you all know it, so why do I have to keep saying it...
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I don't like being told what I know or what I think, Silver - smacks too much of one of Manny's rants. In my opinion there is not a cat in hell's chance that Vettel has improved over last season by the magnitude of 77 points lead in eight races. And, with respect, I don't find any of your other arguments convincing or plausible so I think that's why you "have to keep saying it..."


tribo32 said:
it will have less value, even though some of the great drivers like senna, schumacher and mansell had dominant cars, they still proved that outside of a dominant position that they could battle head to head with other drivers in machinery which is at least fairly close in terms of pace.
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Hello tribo32 - welcome (back) to the forum. Sorry if it appears you're being overlooked here.

I disagree that it will hold less value just because Vettel hasn't been able to prove he can battle with best in F1 outside of having an obscenely dominant car, on a par with Mansell's 1992 machine. IMO, the F1 WDC is awarded to the best driver/car combination and the WCC to the best team/car combination. In both cases, the car is perhaps the most important factor.

I think you would be correct to say Vettel cannot be counted among the greatest drivers for the reason you state, but a championship is a championship and, as long as it isn't stolen by running illegal traction control, driving dangerously and then barging your rival off the circuit in the final race, then I think it's worth as much as any other.
 
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