The Wenger Criticism Thread

[cini65]

So your hard nosed support of the club is arguing that we stop trying to compete for any competition? Sorry If I disagree with you.

Come now, we're in the CL but we don't compete for it.

I also disagree about the CL - it allowed us to get to the final in 2006...

Talking about sort-of successes from almost a decade ago makes us sound like Liverpool fans.

...its allowed us more money, and attract the sponsors that have allowed us to sign players like Sanchez and Ozil and keep players like Walcott.

But my point is this... so what if we have those players if they neither help us win the big two trophies, or really allow us to play better football?

It has allowed us to build a magnificent stadium and to pay off the debt on it

How is that a benefit to most fans? Less than 1% of Arsenal fans have access to, or can regularly afford, tickets. it's nothing more than a money-making tool (making this a circular argument) and something to show off to other clubs about. It hasn't helped us win the big two... yet.

it has kept us competing at the top of the league (which many clubs would only dream of) without bankrupting ourselves (see Leeds, Newcastle, Blackburn ect) or falling foul of FFP like Liverpool.

No it hasn't, it's kept us competing for the CL places.

We came very close to winning the league last year

No we didn't

and finally the CL has allowed us to play against and compete with some of the best teams in the world, beating Bayern, Dortmund, AC and Inter Milan among others

Yeay, maybe I suppose. Not really been many of those great nights though has there. If I think of the worthy nights we've had starting with the most recent I'd say Dortmund last year (and that was hardly a 'classic' night that will stick with us forever)... Barca at home a few years ago... Milan away years and years ago... meh, after that?

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

Why do you actually support the team? I'm struggling to see it - I mean you don't want us to be in a position to sign better players, you don't want us to be in the top club competition in world, don't want us to be at the top part of the league, don't think we should have improved and expanded our stadium (which if we hadn't we'd be in a hugely worse position now).

But in spite not wanting us to do any of the above, you want us to what? Would you be happy for us to be a mid table club? Or do you think without a modern, income generating stadium, the money and prestige brought in by the CL, the players attracted by CL football, the Sponsors attracted by being a top club in the PL and in the CL. Do you think without all this we'd be in a stronger position to compete for the PL and CL?

I'm sorry but you sound a bit like a little kid moaning "I don't like, I don't want to, blah blah"

And yes spending almost two thirds of the season on top of the league is competing, at least in any rational universe

 

[cini65]

Where, anywhere, have I said I don't want all those things?

All I've said is we don't have any of those things, so ultimately is there a worth to us getting all the money associated with 4th if all it helps us get is 4th?

Answer me this... if Ozil and Sanchez don't allow us to win any more trophies than we'd win without them, and they also don't allow us to player a better style of football that is more enjoyable to watch. Then does it matter if we sign them in the first place?

There has to be a sign of progression. Worthless soundbites of 'allowing us to sign quality players' and 'playing in an amazing stadium' aren't anything to be proud of unless they get us somewhere (ie. winning the league or CL).

In my opinion, we did not rationally compete for the league last season any more than Southampton are rationally competing for the league right now. We played all the top teams away in the second half of the season. The fixture list allowed us to take advantage of easier fixtures giving us the artificial impression of being the top team in the league. Once we played the good teams away from home, we got trashed in them all. We dropped like a stone. Had we played them in the first half of the season away we would never have spent the first half of the season at, or close to, the top of the league. We competed in 2007/08. We did not last year.

All I want is to play good football and challenge for the PL or CL. What do you want exactly on top of this?

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

You've said that there's no point having CL football, there's no point having the money associated with it. You said - what benefit is there to our new, modern stadium... ect ect.

We played far over half the season while being top of the league. Yet you say, even though we played every team at least once, and some twice, that we were only top of the league because we played easy teams? Genius! And then you compare it to Southampton this season, who aren't top, and have only played 11 games.

We also had injuries to our key players when playung these top sides, but am I using that as an excuse? No, all I'm saying is that a side who played by far the best football at the start of the season, and spent the majority of the season on top of the league, competed for the league. It's a simple point.

Question - do you think it will be easier or harder to win the league if we fall out of the CL and finish lower down the prem?

 

[cini65]

You've said that there's no point having CL football, there's no point having the money associated with it. You said - what benefit is there to our new, modern stadium... ect ect.

No, I've said there's no point in the money if it doesn't ultimately help us achieve anything.

We played far over half the season while being top of the league. Yet you say, even though we played every team at least once, and some twice, that we were only top of the league because we played easy teams? Genius!

No, we played easier games, not teams.

And then you compare it to Southampton this season, who aren't top, and have only played 11 games.

What relevance is being top or not? They have an artificially high placing because they haven't played many tough games yet. 6 of their next 10 are against Arsenal, City, United and Chelsea.

We also had injuries to our key players when playung these top sides

,
Please do let me know who was unavailable in our 6-3 loss to City. Or how Ramsay and Walcott would have prevented us conceding all 6 against Chelsea or 5 against Liverpool (who were missing Gerrard and Sakho).

but am I using that as an excuse?

Yup looks like it

No, all I'm saying is that a side who played by far the best football at the start of the season, and spent the majority of the season on top of the league, competed for the league. It's a simple point.

Not really. It's an opinion and certainly not a simple point. Do you consider pacemakers of long distance races to be competing for the win? Did you consider Janowicz as a contender for the Wimbledon title in 2013 when he got to the semis?

Question - do you think it will be easier or harder to win the league if we fall out of the CL and finish lower down the prem?

Of course it would be 'harder'. But that's not the point I'm making. We don't win the league with the CL money anyway so easier or harder is irrelevant because it's unlikely to happen while AW is here however easy or hard it is.




The only upside to qualifying for the CL and getting the money associated with it is to try and build a kitty (or squad of quality) that our next manager could actually make us of.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

I give up! - IMO you are very deluded

 

[Bergkampspilot]

Still commenting about me after midnight? I'm touched. Just me that's emotional about things though.

Cini I never meant for you to take the emotional comments so personally. I apologize if I upset you.

I think your over the top in your views on Wenger and I think your assement of AVB being as good as Wenger is inaccurate.

I hope thats cleared things up for you!

 

[cini65]

Cini I never meant for you to take the emotional comments so personally. I apologize if I upset you.

Ditto. I sincerely apologise that you took my comments to heart

I think your over the top in your views on Wenger and I think your assement of AVB being as good as Wenger is inaccurate.

Very calmly stated, thank you.

 

[cini65]

I give up! - IMO you are very deluded

I'd like to know why though and not in a 'trying-to-create-an-argument' way that I sometimes admit I do.

Am I deluded to think AW will not have us challenging us for the PL or CL in his remaining years? That's only my opinion and one that I know a lot of others share.

Am I deluded to think that finishing 4th with Sanchez and Cazorla in a 60k stadium is no more pleasing than finishing 4th without Sanchez and Cazorla in a 38k stadium?

is it deluded to want the club to show some semblance of progression and actually do something of note with all the money we make and players we sign and not be overly impressed if we don't?

The only thing I can see others finding genuinely deluded is when I said that AVB is no worse than Wenger as a manager right now. Maybe, maybe not. But let's face it, would a top top club really want to employ either in future given their recent records?

 

[Bergkampspilot]

I'd like to know why though and not in a 'trying-to-create-an-argument' way that I sometimes admit I do.

Am I deluded to think AW will not have us challenging us for the PL or CL in his remaining years? That's only my opinion and one that I know a lot of others share.

Am I deluded to think that finishing 4th with Sanchez and Cazorla in a 60k stadium is no more pleasing than finishing 4th without Sanchez and Cazorla in a 38k stadium?

is it deluded to want the club to show some semblance of progression and actually do something of note with all the money we make and players we sign and not be overly impressed if we don't?

The only thing I can see others finding genuinely deluded is when I said that AVB is no worse than Wenger as a manager right now. Maybe, maybe not. But let's face it, would a top top club really want to employ either in future given their recent records?

I think you'd find if both were out of a job at the same time most of the top clubs would go for Wenger. Wenger has won manager of the decade and was voted for by his peers so comparing his record (recent or past) to AVB is more of an insult to Wenger but I'm sure you know that already Cini.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

No your not deluded for thinking that Wenger won't ever challenge for the PL/CL again. While it's something I disagree with, I can see the argument and why you think it, and its only an opinion after all, I don't think your claiming he definitely won't - just that in your opinion he won't. I do think your passion for the subject comes over too strongly and can sometimes be taken the wrong way. (though I don't want this to come across as sarcastic or as inciting another argument, it's not my intention!)

I think your opinion is deluded is your dismissal of the CL and being in the top rung of the PL (and by top rung I mean one of the biggest clubs, finishing in the top 4 spots in the league) and how this has affected the teams position and ability to compete. I think its deluded that you seem to believe that a club without a sugar daddy or the global reach (certainly in early 2000s when we started looking at building a stadium) of teams such as Man U and Liverpool, would be able to compete and and finish in the top rungs of the league, or hold onto its best players without the income generated (and the prospective income) from a new stadium.

And finally I find it deluded that you keep claiming to want to see progress while at the same time moaning about and dismissing all the things the club has put in place to create progress, or to build a platform for this progress - such as buying WC players like Sanchez and Ozil, or developing the funds to buy these players, and allowing us to compete on a global scale without being a selling club.

I'd say finishing 4th with Sanchez and Cazorla is a lot more pleasing than finishing 7th/8th and selling Walcott and Kos.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

Ohh and there's the AVB comment...

 

[cini65]

I think you'd find if both were out of a job at the same time most of the top clubs would go for Wenger. Wenger has won manager of the decade and was voted for by his peers so comparing his record (recent or past) to AVB is more of an insult to Wenger but I'm sure you know that already Cini.

That manager of the decade award was farcical though, and if anything shows how pointless awards like that are. And no, that award was not directly voted for by peers. It was a compilation of points put together based on manager of season awards from various leagues. So no-one actually voted on a 'manager of the decade' poll. If there genuinely was a manager of the decade across the globe poll, do you genuinely think Wenger would win it?

If someone said to you that you had to pick one person who would manage your club and they'd be there for 10 years from 2000 to 2009 whether you liked it or not... who would you pick out of Ferguson, Wenger or Mourinho?

 

[cini65]

No your not deluded for thinking that Wenger won't ever challenge for the PL/CL again. While it's something I disagree with, I can see the argument and why you think it, and its only an opinion after all, I don't think your claiming he definitely won't - just that in your opinion he won't. I do think your passion for the subject comes over too strongly and can sometimes be taken the wrong way. (though I don't want this to come across as sarcastic or as inciting another argument, it's not my intention!)

I think your opinion is deluded is your dismissal of the CL and being in the top rung of the PL (and by top rung I mean one of the biggest clubs, finishing in the top 4 spots in the league) and how this has affected the teams position and ability to compete. I think its deluded that you seem to believe that a club without a sugar daddy or the global reach (certainly in early 2000s when we started looking at building a stadium) of teams such as Man U and Liverpool, would be able to compete and and finish in the top rungs of the league, or hold onto its best players without the income generated (and the prospective income) from a new stadium.

And finally I find it deluded that you keep claiming to want to see progress while at the same time moaning about and dismissing all the things the club has put in place to create progress, or to build a platform for this progress - such as buying WC players like Sanchez and Ozil, or developing the funds to buy these players, and allowing us to compete on a global scale without being a selling club.

I'd say finishing 4th with Sanchez and Cazorla is a lot more pleasing than finishing 7th/8th and selling Walcott and Kos.

This goes round in circles. Do you think we've progressed with Ozil and Sanchez in the team? Did we actually finish 7th/8th before we spent £80m of our CL money on those two?

I want to see progress but I can't see it happening while AW is here, so in my opinion the bare minimum should be spent on players while AW is still here (like it was during the stadium building years) and then saved up and given to the new manager when he gets here. At least then he'd have a ton of money to spend on players he wants rather than be left with a squad of small attacking midfield players that AW wanted.

 

[cini65]

Ohh and there's the AVB comment...

You must log in or register to see images

 

[Bergkampspilot]

That manager of the decade award was farcical though, and if anything shows how pointless awards like that are. And no, that award was not directly voted for by peers. It was a compilation of points put together based on manager of season awards from various leagues. So no-one actually voted on a 'manager of the decade' poll. If there genuinely was a manager of the decade across the globe poll, do you genuinely think Wenger would win it?

If someone said to you that you had to pick one person who would manage your club and they'd be there for 10 years from 2000 to 2009 whether you liked it or not... who would you pick out of Ferguson, Wenger or Mourinho?

Not Maureen. He Wouldn't last that long im afraid as his record clearly shows. Fergie Is a good choice. But without Wenger we would not have the stability we have now and all those glory years past I would not swap it for any other manager.

but hey thats just my opinion.

Wenger worked on a budget and has achieved great things and only recently won The FA cup so IMO I don't think he is as bad as you see him.

Your entitled to your opinion obiously but I think your angle is very skewed.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

This goes round in circles. Do you think we've progressed with Ozil and Sanchez in the team? Did we actually finish 7th/8th before we spent £80m of our CL money on those two?

I want to see progress but I can't see it happening while AW is here, so in my opinion the bare minimum should be spent on players while AW is still here (like it was during the stadium building years) and then saved up and given to the new manager when he gets here. At least then he'd have a ton of money to spend on players he wants rather than be left with a squad of small attacking midfield players that AW wanted.

Why are you asking if we finished 7th/8th before we signed Sanchez/Ozil?

The point I'm trying to get make to you is that IF we didn't build the Emirates and were still playing a 38k stadium, we wouldn't have the funds to not only sign players like Sanchez and Ozil, but to compete with any of the teams above us in the transfer market, we'd be an even worse selling club that we were a 4-5 seasons ago would more than likely lose our other best players - Walcott and Kos are just examples of this. As the league is a lot more competitive now than when we 1st considered building the stadium, when we only had Man U (and just before we started - Chelsea) to worry about - who we struggled with. Since then Chelsea and Man C have totally changed the footballing landscape - Spurs have spent shedloads to only tread water, Liverpool have spent increasing amounts to join the top table and there's about 7 teams all with a lot of resources able to compete for the top spots.

And for some reason in this environment you think that we'd just wish our way to 4th, with barely any money, no sugar daddy or great revenue stream...

 

[Bergkampspilot]

That manager of the decade award was farcical though, and if anything shows how pointless awards like that are. And no, that award was not directly voted for by peers. It was a compilation of points put together based on manager of season awards from various leagues. So no-one actually voted on a 'manager of the decade' poll. If there genuinely was a manager of the decade across the globe poll, do you genuinely think Wenger would win it?

If someone said to you that you had to pick one person who would manage your club and they'd be there for 10 years from 2000 to 2009 whether you liked it or not... who would you pick out of Ferguson, Wenger or Mourinho?

Never heard an Arsenal fan dismiss all of Wengers achievements as nothing special.

Yeah I'd give him the award maybe beacause I am so grateful for the transformation of Arsenal from a mediocre team to a world class team.

 

[cini65]

Why are you asking if we finished 7th/8th before we signed Sanchez/Ozil?

The point I'm trying to get make to you is that IF we didn't build the Emirates and were still playing a 38k stadium, we wouldn't have the funds to not only sign players like Sanchez and Ozil, but to compete with any of the teams above us in the transfer market, we'd be an even worse selling club that we were a 4-5 seasons ago would more than likely lose our other best players - Walcott and Kos are just examples of this. As the league is a lot more competitive now than when we 1st considered building the stadium, when we only had Man U (and just before we started - Chelsea) to worry about - who we struggled with. Since then Chelsea and Man C have totally changed the footballing landscape - Spurs have spent shedloads to only tread water, Liverpool have spent increasing amounts to join the top table and there's about 7 teams all with a lot of resources able to compete for the top spots.

And for some reason in this environment you think that we'd just wish our way to 4th, with barely any money, no sugar daddy or great revenue stream...

But we finished 4th from 2006 - 2013 on limited funds without buying these £30m+ players. Do we still need to be spending these obscene amounts to still only finish 4th? Should we be expecting more than 4th with the money we're spending? Look at this year for example. Only Chelsea have been anything other than inconsistent. £30m+ players should be helping us win the league, not help us struggle to 4th. Again.

 

[cini65]

Never heard an Arsenal fan dismiss all of Wengers achievements as nothing special.

Yeah I'd give him the award maybe beacause I am so grateful for the transformation of Arsenal from a mediocre team to a world class team.

I haven't dismissed them anywhere as 'nothing special'. But his achievements were a long, long time ago now.

Manager of the decade just for winning 2 league titles and 2 FA cups?? It's not as if we were a rubbish team on December 1999 and AW suddenly made us top draw in that decade.

To suggest anyone other than Fergie is deluded in my opinion.