Give up you two. The argument, moving on from "Wenger has no money" has progressed to "but another manager might not do brilliant immediately!" Desperately clutching to any reason to keep a manager who cannot motivate a team and hasn't performed well for half a decade.
The Wenger Criticism Thread
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Hardly desperately clutching to an argument - merely pointing out that to say AVB is better than Wenger is slightly ridiculous.
And I don't see how discussing how difficult it will be for the new manager when he comes in, is 'desperately clutching at any reason to keep Wenger'
Even though there are strong arguments to keep him...
And I don't see how discussing how difficult it will be for the new manager when he comes in, is 'desperately clutching at any reason to keep Wenger'
Even though there are strong arguments to keep him...
Every person has their sell-by-date. Some people know when it is and leave at the right time like Fergie, but some carry on when they shouldn't. Wenger hasn't come to a bad point yet as he is consistently getting top 4 Champions league spots. But he can't seem to get past a certain point, no matter which star player comes in. He doesn't have that edge that he used to have. I look at his teams and the way they are set out, I just can't see them going past a certain level. I'm not bashing the players as I think they are top quality and under the right kind of manager, will be able to take it to that next level. But even after winning the FA cup (which was far from convincing), they look like the same vulnerable side that won nothing.
An old vintage Wenger yes, but this version of Wenger is past his prime.
Although I think Chelsea will run away with the league I also think its highly unlikely we won't improve over the Season.
We are definitely under performing considering the squad we have so I think its highly possible we can enter the title race again in the second half of the Season. Its possible we can continue this poor start to Season and have an all round nightmare but its unlikely. Things are going to get better.
We are definitely under performing considering the squad we have so I think its highly possible we can enter the title race again in the second half of the Season. Its possible we can continue this poor start to Season and have an all round nightmare but its unlikely. Things are going to get better.
TBH I think Ferg should have gone a few seasons earlier, or started rebuilding the side before he left.
Wenger, for all a lot of posters on here saying he can't/won't improve, massively improved the performance of the team last season compared to the season before, and two thirds of the way through the season injuries and fatigue took their toll - which you could very well blame Wenger for, because we had such a small squad.
This season has been poor, but we are only 3 months in - the way some people are talking is as if we've crashed out of every competition and are languishing at the bottom of the league, never to compete again...
Wenger, for all a lot of posters on here saying he can't/won't improve, massively improved the performance of the team last season compared to the season before, and two thirds of the way through the season injuries and fatigue took their toll - which you could very well blame Wenger for, because we had such a small squad.
This season has been poor, but we are only 3 months in - the way some people are talking is as if we've crashed out of every competition and are languishing at the bottom of the league, never to compete again...
You need to look up the definition of counter productive. It means: in trying to improve a situation you can inadvertently make it worse. Which is exactly the type of thing that could happen with the mentality of appointing somebody like AVB.
It's already been pointed out to you that using a narrow and highly selective time frame of win ratio means nothing over the long term. Otherwise can we presume that you'd be advocating us replacing Wenger with Fat Sam ? (now where have I heard that before ..... ?) Or Ronald Koeman ? (who you said had a terrible record as a manager)
This idea about us producing 0 and so can't decrease productivity below this level is utter nonsense. We are in the Champions League every season and we won the FA cup last season. Our productivity could quite easily fall away. To then extrapolate this idea of 0 productivity giving us an excuse to hire and fire without any consequences simply beggars belief.
You then go on to say you don't care who we hire, don't care who we sign and don't care who we sell. But you just want some progress. Forgive me if I'm missing something, but I think your approach to securing this progress is negligent at best and clueless at worst. Like I said, I'm not opposed to change but it has be a change that will improve us. This idea of change for the sake of change and to hell with whatever change that might be is totally ridiculous and as I said, highly likely to be counter productive.
Agreed
But completely wasted on someone who 'doesn't care'
Someone pick Cini's toys up for him.
I'll await you to post evidence on here of anyone who has said AVB is better than Wenger.
Still commenting about me after midnight? I'm touched. Just me that's emotional about things though.
Mostly good post. One or two points I disagree with, but all in all a good reply to my inflammatory post.
But:
(1) Koeman has a mediocre managerial record, that is fact. And he's done nothing with Southampton yet. Don't know why you keep bringing that one up
(2) I don't value finishing 4th and therefore achieving said position is not 'productive'. It could only be deemed as being productive it doing so was helping us achieve another goal in the process (such as maybe attracting the sorts of players that might push us towards premier league victory).
Anyway, my posts yesterday were almost pure and simple argumentative for arguments sake. So I apologise and I shall desist. For the most part. Bergkampspilot though seems like fun to reply to though.
Splitting hairs at all? I humbly apologise, you said avb is as good as wenger.
Of course im still waiting for someone who actually agrees with you. ...
I know that we have greatly benefited from getting top 4 with Champions League money, but I find that it has devalued the competition by allowing teams as far as 4th place to compete. They should remove the title Champions League and just call it The Big Money European Shindig.
Whether someone posted that AVB was better than Wenger or not is objective. It didn't happen.
Whether people agree with an opinion or not is just subjective. People can disagree with it if they want, no skin off my or their nose.
But after being told not to make stuff up to suit an argument, I was just trying to uphold those values and instil a sense of consistency on this board. But if making stuff up can be brushed off as just 'splitting hairs' then I'll remember that for next time I fancy constructing untruths to suit a point I want to make.
But really, have we benefited from that money?
To sign better players to allow us to challenge for CL or PL? Nope
To sign better players to allow us to play better football? Nope
To build a new stadium so more fans could attend with reduced costs and more availability? Not really
It seems that the CL money from finishing 4th just allows us to get the squad capable of finishing 4th the next year.
Cini65 you might be deliberately trying to be inflammatory and argumentative, but it's coming off as showing you up as being a bit clueless.
The reason I brought up Koeman was because you were so adamant in telling me he was rubbish, but the equation you used (win ratio over a narrow time period) to try and say that AVB was as good as Wenger would also have you advocating Koeman (and Fat Sam) for the same reason.
Also finishing in the top 4 and playing champions league football does help us attract players to the club. Unless you want to spend £350k per week on wages for the top players, which we wouldn't even be able to do without CL revenue.
The reason I brought up Koeman was because you were so adamant in telling me he was rubbish, but the equation you used (win ratio over a narrow time period) to try and say that AVB was as good as Wenger would also have you advocating Koeman (and Fat Sam) for the same reason.
Also finishing in the top 4 and playing champions league football does help us attract players to the club. Unless you want to spend £350k per week on wages for the top players, which we wouldn't even be able to do without CL revenue.
So your hard nosed support of the club is arguing that we stop trying to compete for any competition? Sorry If I disagree with you.
I also disagree about the CL - it allowed us to get to the final in 2006, its allowed us more money, and attract the sponsors that have allowed us to sign players like Sanchez and Ozil and keep players like Walcott. It has allowed us to build a magnificent stadium and to pay off the debt on it, it has kept us competing at the top of the league (which many clubs would only dream of) without bankrupting ourselves (see Leeds, Newcastle, Blackburn ect) or falling foul of FFP like Liverpool.
We came very close to winning the league last year, and finally the CL has allowed us to play against and compete with some of the best teams in the world, beating Bayern, Dortmund, AC and Inter Milan among others
Regarding Koeman, my adamant stance was borne out of you disagreeing with me that Koeman has no history of being a good manager. It's a fact he doesn't. He has a worse managerial record than AVB. As for Fatty Arbuckles, I'd be fascinated to see if Wenger could have West Ham up where they were if he was their manager instead of Fatty Arbuckles.
But attract players for what purpose? To finish 4th. Which helps us attract more players to finish 4th. Which helps us attract more players to finish 4th. An endless cycle while AW is here.
Do you see AW improving to the point where we'd achieve anything more than we ever do (4th and KO'd in CL to the first good team in KO phase)? And if that is all he can achieve with the players and money at his disposal, does that make him any better than a whole host of other managers?