That is grossly unfair. There is NO evidence that ex-black players are expecting to go straight into top jobs. And plenty from the data collated that these individuals are applying for jobs at lower levels and are not getting them.
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That is grossly unfair. There is NO evidence that ex-black players are expecting to go straight into top jobs. And plenty from the data collated that these individuals are applying for jobs at lower levels and are not getting them.
That is grossly unfair. There is NO evidence that ex-black players are expecting to go straight into top jobs. And plenty from the data collated that these individuals are applying for jobs at lower levels and are not getting them.
never said there was, but there is no stats to say they don't either is there.
i just find it hypocritical of the FA to come out with figures and stats etc trying to make out things are wrong in the game, when they try and hide racism under the carpet internally.
problems usually start from the top and work their way down, and for things to be done fair for all if there is a problem need to look to the FA (ie at the top) first, hardly a pillar for of all things virtue are they.
the FA are as much of a joke as FIFA, that's where the real issues lie, get rid of the idiots in them who have too much influence and power on the sport, and maybe, hopefully, this will be one of many problems that goes away from the game.
Carlthejackal - don't get me wrong. I agree with your points overall. The statistical proof that they are not getting the jobs SEEMS to imply something. But there isn't proof. In the united states, there are documented cases where companies have circulated memos and internal directives not to hire blacks. There are cases where people change their name to more white sounding ones and get 3 times as many results for job interviews.
This data is assumed to imply racism - the documents prove it. In football the statistical data implies that something is wrong but there is NO evidence that proves it. Until that evidence comes to light the reason could be anything. Empirically speaking you cannot assume racism.
What are the numbers then? What percentage of black applicants usually get a job compared to their white counterparts? What percentage are denied, actually. Do these numbers remain constant throughout the divisions? Across positions lower than manager? What are the rates of applications to these posts?
Obviously a company won't come out and say - we don't want you because you're black. But you can find examples in the US where people claim they are the best qualified entrants for that position and find that it is true but they don't get the job. There are documented proofs of racism. Subtleness isn't proof either way. Racism can be subtle but it can also be blatant. Remember that for a job in England probably 50 people apply. Are all these people rejected because they're black or because they are not as skilled as someone else? How many blacks apply compared to whites? These need to be known before we can conclude its racism.
This data is assumed to imply racism - the documents prove it. In football the statistical data implies that something is wrong but there is NO evidence that proves it. Until that evidence comes to light the reason could be anything. Empirically speaking you cannot assume racism.
What are the numbers then? What percentage of black applicants usually get a job compared to their white counterparts? What percentage are denied, actually. Do these numbers remain constant throughout the divisions? Across positions lower than manager? What are the rates of applications to these posts?
Obviously a company won't come out and say - we don't want you because you're black. But you can find examples in the US where people claim they are the best qualified entrants for that position and find that it is true but they don't get the job. There are documented proofs of racism. Subtleness isn't proof either way. Racism can be subtle but it can also be blatant. Remember that for a job in England probably 50 people apply. Are all these people rejected because they're black or because they are not as skilled as someone else? How many blacks apply compared to whites? These need to be known before we can conclude its racism.
"But you can find examples in the US where people claim they are the best qualified entrants for that position and find that it is true but they don't get the job."
well everyone thinks they are the best person for the job any way lol.
also the best qualified, does not necessary mean best candidate, so racism might not be the issue, what about interview process and the person who thinks they are the best candidate comes across as too cocky and arrogant for the person doing the interview? never know unless all interviews are recorded, and that's just taking things to a stupid level to justify your decision.
where does this end any way, black prime minister, black chief of FA before its seen as every thing is fine.
big fuss was made out of obama being president, is it going to go same way here.
well everyone thinks they are the best person for the job any way lol.
also the best qualified, does not necessary mean best candidate, so racism might not be the issue, what about interview process and the person who thinks they are the best candidate comes across as too cocky and arrogant for the person doing the interview? never know unless all interviews are recorded, and that's just taking things to a stupid level to justify your decision.
where does this end any way, black prime minister, black chief of FA before its seen as every thing is fine.
big fuss was made out of obama being president, is it going to go same way here.
These points are well argued and I agree ith them.
I remember the examples you cited in the US. they were so blatant that no one could argue against them. People had to take notice.
I remember reading a research article in the papers a few years ago about applications for doctors jobs in England. 2 researchers sent duplicate applications to advertised vacancies in hospitals and in general practice. The two applications were exactly the same in every single little detail: age, sex, address, university, jobs done, publications, CVs, hobbies etc. The ONLY difference was the name. One anglosaxon and the other asian. They sent about 200 applications. they found that there was a large and significant difference in being shortlisted according to name. The candidate with an anglosaxon name was 4-5 times more likely to be shortlisted than the asian one and that difference was unlikely to have arisen by chance.
It is probably more difficult to do that sort of research in football.
So now the figures that "do not lie" are highly suggestive that something WAS wrong??? Of fecking course something WAS wrong, football was at least as racist as the rest of society (if not more so) but football is slowly catching up. However, that is a far cry from the claim that the reason for the lack of black people in those posts is due to people today being turned down for jobs just because they are black.
Undoubtedly there are racist people amongst the owners, executives and officials and direct discrimination will go on but do you really think that at every club up and down the land everyone is acting like Randolph and Mortimer Duke thinking "how could we possibly employ him, after all he is a negro!"
As for the stats collated by the FA, well i would like to see them, as for you thinking it must be true otherwise the FA would not have said so, its time to wise up and realise that it is all PR nonsense.
You brought up racism and the police earlier, well they "admitted" that institutional racism was to blame for the Stephen Lawrence debacle, does that mean it was true?
This is just an easy cop out for the FA that does nothing to help resolve the situation.
This is interesting. Are you saying that the police admitted they were institutionally racist when in fact this may not be true??
What is interesting is that you decided to grossly misrepresent my question and ignored the rest.
I didn't misrepresent your question. I asked in order to clarify, which you did. I thought for a moment that you were saying that the police had admitted to racism when in fact it wasn't true. I accept that is not what you meant.
I chose to ignore the rest because these are opinions and we are all entitled to our own. Which is fine by me.
You think the FA is full of PR nonsense. I probably agree to a certain extent but that does not mean that what they are saying about black managers is not true.