O/T Scottish Independence

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commachio1 said:
Bit of a difference though...The English and Scots have been joined at the hip for far to long.

I hope you vote yes...let's have borders, and passports, etc..

It'll take time to sort a few things out...Then we'll see.
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There's no difference at at all unless i've missed something and there are passport controls on the Irish border?
 
DevAdvocate said:
There's no difference at at all unless i've missed something and there are passport controls on the Irish border?
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UK and Ireland are outside of the Schengen Area and have their own bilateral agreement on border movement.

If Scotland was independent and didn't get EU membership it would fall outside of EU border rules and would need to negotiate individually with countries
If it was independent and did gain EU membership and one of the conditions was that it joined the Schengen area then it would be subject to the same passport and border controls that we have with other Schengen countries.

It is far from guaranteed that there would be free movement between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Yes campaign claim it's scaremongering (like everything that points out a flaw in their campaign) but the prior agreements are there for everyone to see.
 
TankMarvin said:
UK and Ireland are outside of the Schengen Area and have their own bilateral agreement on border movement.

If Scotland was independent and didn't get EU membership it would fall outside of EU border rules and would need to negotiate individually with countries
If it was independent and did gain EU membership and one of the conditions was that it joined the Schengen area then it would be subject to the same passport and border controls that we have with other Schengen countries.

It is far from guaranteed that there would be free movement between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Yes campaign claim it's scaremongering (like everything that points out a flaw in their campaign) but the prior agreements are there for everyone to see.
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It would be in no one's interest to resist any application by Scotland to join any organisation that the UK is currently a member of, whether that be the EU, NATO etc.

Who gains by not allowing Scotland continue to operate it's borders and passport controls as it has done for years? No one, it would just appear to be spiteful because it would serve no purpose. It's a bit of a gamble perhaps, but like many Scots, I like a gamble, it's exciting.
 
DevAdvocate said:
It would be in no one's interest to resist any application by Scotland to join any organisation that the UK is currently a member of, whether that be the EU, NATO etc.

Who gains by not allowing Scotland continue to operate it's borders and passport controls as it has done for years? No one, it would just appear to be spiteful because it would serve no purpose. It's a bit of a gamble perhaps, but like many Scots, I like a gamble, it's exciting.
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There are plenty of countries within the EU that might resist a separatist nation from joining as it sets a precedent for other separatists. Spain, Belgium and Italy have already voiced concerns.
It is not necessarily up to the UK whether Scotland joins, regardless of whether it is in the UK's best interests or not.

Regarding NATO, as George Robertson said on Newsnight the other night (I'm paraphrasing) - NATO is a military organisation which has nuclear deterrence as it's core doctrine. If Scotland's action affects the operation of the UK's contribution to that nuclear deterrent I doubt they would be very welcome.
The SNPs argument that there are other non-nuclear countries in NATO is misleading as the SNP's whitepaper states Scotland would be anti-nuclear not non-nuclear.
 
TankMarvin said:
There are plenty of countries within the EU that might resist a separatist nation from joining as it sets a precedent for other separatists. Spain, Belgium and Italy have already voiced concerns.
It is not necessarily up to the UK whether Scotland joins, regardless of whether it is in the UK's best interests or not.

Regarding NATO, as George Robertson said on Newsnight the other night (I'm paraphrasing) - NATO is a military organisation which has nuclear deterrence as it's core doctrine. If Scotland's action affects the operation of the UK's contribution to that nuclear deterrent I doubt they would be very welcome.
The SNPs argument that there are other non-nuclear countries in NATO is misleading as the SNP's whitepaper states Scotland would be anti-nuclear not non-nuclear.
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There is no need for Scotland to have nuclear weapons as a pre condition of entering NATO. That's a simple fact.

If Scotland gains independence Faslane's future is up for negotiation, that negotiation will mean that Falsane remains as is for about 10 years, that's how long it will take to find a suitable location and build the infrastructure required. Scotland will not have a nuclear deterrent per se, but the facilities and subs will be in Scotland for the forseeable future and there's not much that can be done to change that.
 
DevAdvocate said:
There is no need for Scotland to have nuclear weapons as a pre condition of entering NATO. That's a simple fact.

If Scotland gains independence Faslane's future is up for negotiation, that negotiation will mean that Falsane remains as is for about 10 years, that's how long it will take to find a suitable location and build the infrastructure required. Scotland will not have a nuclear deterrent per se, but the facilities and subs will be in Scotland for the forseeable future and there's not much that can be done to change that.
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I never said Scotland needed nuclear weapons - you are using the same misleading argument as Salmond.

You can join NATO as a non-nuclear country, but since the whole premise of NATO is security through nuclear deterrence how can you joined if you are anti-nuclear ?
 
TankMarvin said:
I never said Scotland needed nuclear weapons - you are using the same misleading argument as Salmond.

You can join NATO as a non-nuclear country, but since the whole premise of NATO is security through nuclear deterrence how can you joined if you are anti-nuclear ?
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So what becomes of Faslane and Coulport?

Will the town of Helensburgh become a wasteland?
 
TankMarvin said:
I never said Scotland needed nuclear weapons - you are using the same misleading argument as Salmond.

You can join NATO as a non-nuclear country, but since the whole premise of NATO is security through nuclear deterrence how can you joined if you are anti-nuclear ?
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NATO Nuclear Policy: In its new Strategic Concept adopted in Lisbon November 2010, NATO committed to "a world without nuclear weapons," pledging to contribute to international efforts to fight proliferation, but affirmed its intention to maintain nuclear forces "as long as there are nuclear weapons in the world." The NATO document recognized the change in the security environment after the Cold War and that circumstances in which nuclear weapons might have to be contemplated are "extremely remote." NATO members emphasized that security would be sought "at the lowest possible level of forces," and announced a reduction in reliance upon nuclear weapons in NATO strategy including continued reductions of the number of nuclear weapons stationed in Europe.
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This position is reflected by member states such as Denmark, Norway, and Spain which forbid the deployment of nuclear weapons on their territory in peacetime.
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http://www.nti.org/treaties-and-regimes/north-atlantic-treaty-organization-nato/


Does this answer your question?
 
commachio1 said:
So what becomes of Faslane and Coulport?

Will the town of Helensburgh become a wasteland?
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The town of Helensburgh is already a wasteland - even worse than it was back when I went to school there and then worked there for 7 years.

One thing that has genuinely surprised me is that the majority of people I know who live locally to Coulport and Faslane are in favour of independence. I expected a massive majority to be against because of the base. (based only on my own facebook timeline - nothing scientific)
 
Less Hope Than Neville said:
The town of Helensburgh is already a wasteland - even worse than it was back when I went to school there and then worked there for 7 years.

One thing that has genuinely surprised me is that the majority of people I know who live locally to Coulport and Faslane are in favour of independence. I expected a massive majority to be against because of the base. (based only on my own facebook timeline - nothing scientific)
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That is a suprise like, considering it's really a naval town...If they leave, until this Scottish defence force (see devils post above) what happens?
 
Less Hope Than Neville said:
The town of Helensburgh is already a wasteland - even worse than it was back when I went to school there and then worked there for 7 years.

One thing that has genuinely surprised me is that the majority of people I know who live locally to Coulport and Faslane are in favour of independence. I expected a massive majority to be against because of the base. (based only on my own facebook timeline - nothing scientific)
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Helensburgh is doing ok compared to many other small towns, a few shops have closed but millions have been spent on the front and the town centre, it's actually going to be really nice when it's finished. There are plenty of Yes posters but there are just as many No posters in the town and surrounding areas. It's hard to tell how they will vote.
 
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