I have not condemned Israel for defending itself - nor have I suggested for one moment that Israel should not exist. I am saying however that their reaction is grossly disproportionate to the danger actually represented by Hamas. Please also note that those same tunnels were primarily built for the importing of medical equipment and food (effectively rationed by Israel) though I admit also used for weapons. My criticism is mainly directed at Israel because they exist as a state, with representation in the U.N., with an import/export trade, with an army and an airforce - none of which Palestine has (although a hundred years ago they were a 90% majority in what is now Israel). Please do not feel offended by anything which I say, because I have nothing but the utmost respect for Jewish culture as a whole (without it many European developments in medicine, science, physics, literature, politics etc. would have been stillborn). When I criticize Israel I am no more criticizing Judaeism than I am criticizing Yankeeism when I criticize the White House. I criticize anybody for rejoicing in pain or death - or for causing it in the first place. But power attracts more criticism than those without it - and Israel has the power to decide how to react, they do not need to permanently expand in order to secure their own borders. Can I ask you one thing H ? If Hamas stopped sending the occasional rocket over would Israel ever accept a Palestinian state with full sovereign powers ? Would you accept this ? Also where does Israel get its oil from ?
Israel - Palestine
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I have not condemned Israel for defending itself - nor have I suggested for one moment that Israel should not exist. I am saying however that their reaction is grossly disproportionate to the danger actually represented by Hamas. Please also note that those same tunnels were primarily built for the importing of medical equipment and food (effectively rationed by Israel) though I admit also used for weapons. My criticism is mainly directed at Israel because they exist as a state, with representation in the U.N., with an import/export trade, with an army and an airforce - none of which Palestine has (although a hundred years ago they were a 90% majority in what is now Israel). Please do not feel offended by anything which I say, because I have nothing but the utmost respect for Jewish culture as a whole (without it many European developments in medicine, science, physics, literature, politics etc. would have been stillborn). When I criticize Israel I am no more criticizing Judaeism than I am criticizing Yankeeism when I criticize the White House. I criticize anybody for rejoicing in pain or death - or for causing it in the first place. But power attracts more criticism than those without it - and Israel has the power to decide how to react, they do not need to permanently expand in order to secure their own borders. Can I ask you one thing H ? If Hamas stopped sending the occasional rocket over would Israel ever accept a Palestinian state with full sovereign powers ? Would you accept this ? Also where does Israel get its oil from ?
I honestly think we are on the wrong track in this discussion. It is like asking if it is better to be killed by a knife or a gun. BOTH sides are wrong - just because one side is more wrong than the other has little relevance. You cannot go bombing innocent civilians because Hamas are nearby and you cannot fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel.
If this were not Israel Cologne is correct there would be more massive international condemnation. However I know of no other country that is under constant threat of obliteration. If yoyur neighbours threatened they wanted to knock your house down and drive you out (or just kill you) how moderate should you be in response? Yes - Israel is guilty of the greater number of killings and atrocities - but they do not see that they have any choice.
Ultimately If Hamas did stop firing rockets Israel could be forced to stop responding.
However there is no goodwill on either side so they will continue to behave like barbarians
It is a damn shame that the UN does not treat it more like Kosovo and force their way into the situation with a peacekeeping force and then try to negotiate a long term end to hostilities. The UN and its predecessor created this mess adn should try to resolve it.
If this were not Israel Cologne is correct there would be more massive international condemnation. However I know of no other country that is under constant threat of obliteration. If yoyur neighbours threatened they wanted to knock your house down and drive you out (or just kill you) how moderate should you be in response? Yes - Israel is guilty of the greater number of killings and atrocities - but they do not see that they have any choice.
Ultimately If Hamas did stop firing rockets Israel could be forced to stop responding.
However there is no goodwill on either side so they will continue to behave like barbarians
It is a damn shame that the UN does not treat it more like Kosovo and force their way into the situation with a peacekeeping force and then try to negotiate a long term end to hostilities. The UN and its predecessor created this mess adn should try to resolve it.
I think maybe Iran also comes in this category Leo - being surrounded by either American puppet states or others with actual American military presence can't do a lot for their feeling of security. I agree fully about your idea of a UN solution but can you see Israel agreeing to that ? I also think we should beware of casting Israel in the role of an aggressive defender which thinks that the whole World is against them. Every occupation being seen as 'for security reasons', don't forget that Israel is not a country which is rich in natural resources. Its drinking water comes mostly from the Sha'aba area of occupied Lebanon and from the occupied areas of the West Bank. Israel also only produces about 1% of its own crude oil - importing heavily from Russia but also, unbelievably, Iranian oil via Europe, its mineral gases coming mostly from Egypt. Israel needs friends and cannot afford to alienate the few she has got.
One more point Leo. The UN has proved itself to be toothless in this situation. The International Court of Justice, the UN General Assembly and the UN Security Council all regard Israel as an 'occupying power' in violation of international law. The occupation of the West Bank is even seen as a violation of international law by Talia Sasson - the high court of justice in Israel. The annexation of East Jerusalem and the Golan heights are not recognized by any other country in the World. Altogether Israel still occupies parts of Egypt, Jordan and Syria together with the Sha'aba area of Lebanon - all in violation of international law. The Gaza strip, designated a Palestinian area (albeit without statehood) has to surrender control of its own air space - is dependent on Israel for deliveries of food and medical equipment and has no international voice, no capital, no army - nothing, just, as Sisu earlier pointed out a ghetto of about 4 million displaced persons in a very cramped space. I cannot balance one evil against another like you do Leo because, for me, there is no comparison.
This is from twitter, I think it is of interest and may shock those of you criticising Israel!
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I wish you would stop posting on here Cologne - your posts are too well argued and too reasonable and often too right !!! 
Yes - the evils are not equal but that really does not matter. One side will not / cannot stop unless the other does too. My points are that both sides are in the wrong and both sides should stop.
Regarding the UN - it is the same old USA situation again as it was with the IRA - American support allows it to happen. When you consider Iraq was invaded because they were even claimed to have WMD. If Israel were not the USA's protectorate they would be stopped tomorrow.
Iran is under no threat of disappearing from the face of the Earth though - and Israel is. So Israel has to be protected for it to survive. However - there is no justification for mass murder and war crimes - which I believe both Hamas and Israel are guilty of.
Eventually world opinion is going to make America put pressure on Israel - the trouble is though that Israel knows US will never allow them to go under so they can call the US's bluff.
Yes - the evils are not equal but that really does not matter. One side will not / cannot stop unless the other does too. My points are that both sides are in the wrong and both sides should stop.
Regarding the UN - it is the same old USA situation again as it was with the IRA - American support allows it to happen. When you consider Iraq was invaded because they were even claimed to have WMD. If Israel were not the USA's protectorate they would be stopped tomorrow.
Iran is under no threat of disappearing from the face of the Earth though - and Israel is. So Israel has to be protected for it to survive. However - there is no justification for mass murder and war crimes - which I believe both Hamas and Israel are guilty of.
Eventually world opinion is going to make America put pressure on Israel - the trouble is though that Israel knows US will never allow them to go under so they can call the US's bluff.
Well we'll have to leave it at that then cos my experience is very different from your and I don't want to get into an arguemen about who experienced what.
And so it begins. Today The Times banned an ad from a Rabbi because, they said, it was too controversial for their readers. Yesterday a cinema in London decided after 17 years of hosting the Jewish Film Festival, that Jewish films were no longer welcome because they may support Israel. Believe me, this is not just an Israel v Hamas problem, this is now becoming a diaspora problem, an 'anti-Jewish problem. And they said it couldn't happen again.
Don't feel that way Hornette. Nearly all of the people who have criticised Israel on here would change sides and support you if there were a rebirth of 'the anti-Jewish problem', and we are here drawn from all corners of society. My criticism of the Israeli government is born not from hate but from disappointment. I say this because Israel was born out of the ashes of a broken Europe, born out of the most horrendous nightmares - and was the chance of a new beginning. I can understand that Israel feels that the past should never happen again, and that this time its enemies should feel fear otherwise they would be destroyed again. If Israel were to withdraw from all occupied land - were to say 'we have our homeland and the Palestinians should have theirs' then Israel would truly be the heir of the survivors of the holocaust. They would then be doing something which proved that they are a 'great' nation and, at the same time, would ensure the unqualified support of every believer in justice in the World - and, thereby ensure their own survival. I am critical because I believe Netanyahu to be an enemy of Israel and an enemy to all Jews in the World through the policies which he is persueing.
Reading through all of your posts it is such a complex issue.
Couldn't it be solved with something simple, say best of 5 scissor, paper, stone.
Couldn't it be solved with something simple, say best of 5 scissor, paper, stone.
i thank you for that Cologne, but Israel have offered a homeland for Palestinians over the years but each group of leaders has refused, preferring to aim for the total annihilation of Israel. How can they not defend themselves when in Hamas' ideology is the idea that there will be no peace until Israel, Israelis, and Jewish people worldwide cease to exist?
I have to agree and disagree at the same time. Looking at other countries where Islam is dominant, after Hamas have destroyed Israel and the Jewish people, the militants will move eventually against all other religions for the creation of a world Caliphate. Islam flexing muscles is more scary than when Christianity did the same thing after the fall of Rome as that was centred on Europe when Islam is world wide.
Your facts are not quite right there H. There was an interview on Newsnight. On the board of the organisers is a Jew who approved the action. The action was NOT anti Jewish nor to ban any film but to leave all film choice to those running it. (Many films shown at the Jewish Film Festival are made by Jews criticising the Israeli Government). What they decided was that they would not accept funding from the Israeli Government while the current crisis lasts. That as Cologne has previously pointed out is not anti Jewish but anti the Israaeli Government. I know nothing about the Times article but papers have refused many political adverts that are deemed controversial - without seeing the ad we cannot know if the refusal was justified.
However on today's breakfast news they did point out that anti-semitic attacks (mainly verbal abuse and graffiti) had nearly doubled in London and Manchester this year. Personally I find that reprehensible - but is often the case when there is tension of this sort - people fail to distinguish between those who should be targeted and the innocent majority - be that Jew or Muslim.
Ah, I understand the logic. The US military have a presence in over 80 countries in the World. We bomb Afghanistan and Iraq flat - give them puppet governments with the understanding that they open their borders to the free market before international firms move in to rebuild those countries. We encircle Iran, interfere to change governments more or less where we choose. We give them Luton in exchange and it is them who are trying to conquer the World.
I was not talking about US military. They are here and in the UK and many other places, sometimes they are there because they are invited and sometimes as a reaction to something else in a similar way to how USSR/Russia behaves. I am not also talking about what happens with Iraq Afganistan or Iran.
If Hamas succeed with destroying Israel and the Jews will they stop and be peaceful in Palestine or will they work towards a local Muslim caliphate and then spread this across the world as a theocracy or more believable an Islamic nation where whoever has the most guns wins.
If Hamas succeed with destroying Israel and the Jews will they stop and be peaceful in Palestine or will they work towards a local Muslim caliphate and then spread this across the world as a theocracy or more believable an Islamic nation where whoever has the most guns wins.
Sadly this is very true whenever there's any type of tension. Having grown up in an Irish family in London in the 70s and 80s I had a small taste of it and absolutely despise it now when it happens to others.
Demonstrate outside somone's embassy or write to their Government and you're a legitimate protestor in my opinion - I actually wish we saw more of that. Desecrate a Mosque or Synagogue or beat up a Jew or Muslim and you're a nasty, bullying bigot. Simple as that.
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