Israel - Palestine

[colognehornet]

No it's not. Synagogues all over Europe including UK are being targeted with either physical or verbal abuse as its typical that in these idiots eyes that all Jews are zionists and vice versa. I've also seen much made of who was where first. Well Judaism wins that hands down or did Solomons temple appear post Islam? As for Israel and its brainwashing, wow... That's not happening with Hamas then? The same missile firing thugs who hide in hospitals and kill their own people indiscriminately if they do not subscribe to their point of view.
I'm Christian so have no bias in this conflict but object to the media, mainly the Guardian, BBC and channel four giving a one eyed unbalanced argument that blatantly is to appease and attract the more aggressive subscribers to the great religion of peace in this country and to the odious left wing ( the real neo fascists).
Israel is not perfect but it's the nearest thing to democracy we have in the ME.
And it is also dismaying to discount the Holocaust as flippantly as you have, and that's where the real danger lies.
Make no mistake, Gaza is just practice for the greater issue...world dominance, and my not so much friend, perhaps then you'll reconsider you're views.
By the way ask the Palestinian gay population of Tel Aviv where they'd rather be? No contest, alive in Israel is better than stoned to death in Gaza, and that olive branch is extended by Israel to anyone be it Jew, Arab, Christian or any other religion that respects its just rights to exist without the fear and threat of being driven into the Red Sea once more.
One more thing, I find it telling the lack of global condemnation of the three Israeli teenagers murdered for bing nothing other than Israeli Jews received very little condemnation from one eyed observers such as the said media and probably yourself. Three young frightened Kids, murdered for being what fate had decreed. The silence is deafening.
Forgive my lack of punctuation for I have forgiven you Americanisation of certain words..and I'm needing a beer in a hurry

At least I now know who this post is directed to. There must be a very strict separation of 'criticism of the Israeli government' on the one hand and anti semitic attacks on the other. The first is a normal human reaction against what is perceived as state terrorism and the second is revolting. As you say we are seeing a highly regrettable rise in anti semitic action and rhetoric in Europe which all true democrats should distance themselves from - but this does not make criticism of the Israeli government less valid. Blaming all Jews for what is happening is like blaming all Moslems for some terrorist acts - and the last 20 years or so have also seen an alarming rise of Islamophobia in Europe.

Reference the Holocaust. I was in no way trying to trivialize this. My father was amongst the allied forces which liberated at least 2 concentration camps - and the stories he has told are horrific. This event was a part of Israel's creation as a state and part of their national 'psyche', I accept that. But I do not accept that Palestinians should suffer now because of the World's biggest human rights violation having happened on European soil.
One further point, or rather question, what do you mean by the expressions 'greater issue`and 'world dominance' with regard to Gaza - I would like clarification on this one.

 

[monacoger]

If you are so sure that "Palestine, the country, goes back through most of recorded history," I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine:

1. When was it founded and by whom?

2. What were its borders?

3. What was its capital?

4. What were its major cities?

5. What constituted the basis of its economy?

6. What was its form of government?

7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?

8. Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?

9. What was the language of the country of Palestine?

10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?

11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese Yuan on that date.

12. And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

You are lamenting the "low sinking" of a "once proud" nation. Please tell me, when exactly was that "nation" proud and what was it so proud of?


And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call "Palestinians" are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over -- or thrown out of -- the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?

I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day "Palestinians" to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history won't work here.

The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it "the Palestinian people" and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the "West Bank" and Gaza, respectively?

The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so-called "Palestinians" have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel, and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a nation" -- or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled.

In fact, there is only one way to achieve peace in the Middle East. Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel's ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria.

 

[Leo]

The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it "the Palestinian people" and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the "West Bank" and Gaza, respectively?

I liked your sarcastic questions. Agree that many if not most Arab states and others would like to see the destruction of Israel. That is not only an evil but also a stupid dream - it will never happen.
You are wrong about Palestine - look at 19th and 20th century maps pre WWII and you will find Palestine and inhabiting people know as Palestinians. The area is so vast old and fluid that peoples inhabiting the area have not had well defined borders for centuries

The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so-called "Palestinians" have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel, and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a nation" -- or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled.

The UN failed everyone in 1947 by creating Israel alone and not also setting up a Palestinian state. We are paying for that error time and again.
To suggest all Palestinians are terrorists is as unreal as suggesting that all Jews are or all Muslims are - it is simply incorrect.

In fact, there is only one way to achieve peace in the Middle East. Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel's ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria.

You must have written this with your tongue firmly in your cheek. That ceratinly is NOT a way to achieve peace.
Should peace - or at least a toleration of each other within accepted borders - ever come about it will involve both a state of Israel and Palestine.

 

[aberdeenhornet]

Establish a state of Palestine with its current lands and some historical land within Syria. Israel needs to have its final borders defined and told to stay within them. THe "displaced" peoples arising from any border moves should be adequately compensated so as not to cause discord. The problem arises when people refuse to be reasonable, I know I for one will be very willing to be re-located away from an independent Scotland if they draw a border just so long as I'm adequately compensated and we send the Scotts located in the mother country back up here freeing up space in the shires and on the roads.... The arabs hate the Palestinians as much as they hate the jews, its just convenient to use them as a pawn to front up against Israel. While we're at it Kurdistan needs to be established as a country at the UN. Anything arab is a mess, damn TE Lawrence....

 

[monacoger]

I liked your sarcastic questions. Agree that many if not most Arab states and others would like to see the destruction of Israel. That is not only an evil but also a stupid dream - it will never happen.
You are wrong about Palestine - look at 19th and 20th century maps pre WWII and you will find Palestine and inhabiting people know as Palestinians. The area is so vast old and fluid that peoples inhabiting the area have not had well defined borders for centuries


The UN failed everyone in 1947 by creating Israel alone and not also setting up a Palestinian state. We are paying for that error time and again.
To suggest all Palestinians are terrorists is as unreal as suggesting that all Jews are or all Muslims are - it is simply incorrect.


You must have written this with your tongue firmly in your cheek. That ceratinly is NOT a way to achieve peace.
Should peace - or at least a toleration of each other within accepted borders - ever come about it will involve both a state of Israel and Palestine.

I have no idea what you are on about, as I quite simply copy and pasted it from an email that was sent to me this morning without reading it. For the record though, I am on the Israeli side, as I trust them more than I trust the Arabs and the sooner they win the war the better. Would probably be more humane if they just completely destroyed Gaza actually and plus it is getting a bit boring.

 

[Leo]

I have no idea what you are on about, as I quite simply copy and pasted it from an email that was sent to me this morning without reading it. For the record though, I am on the Israeli side, as I trust them more than I trust the Arabs and the sooner they win the war the better. Would probably be more humane if they just completely destroyed Gaza actually and plus it is getting a bit boring.

Sorry - I thought I was replying to an interesting post you had put on here

 

[colognehornet]

I have no idea what you are on about, as I quite simply copy and pasted it from an email that was sent to me this morning without reading it. For the record though, I am on the Israeli side, as I trust them more than I trust the Arabs and the sooner they win the war the better. Would probably be more humane if they just completely destroyed Gaza actually and plus it is getting a bit boring.

Aha ! Plagiarism eh. Some of the questions may however be taken down and used in future pub quizzes - so, thanks very much. Some of the stuff about Israel having a historical right to this land prompts the question - just how far do we have to go back ? If someone appeared on your doorstep with the claim that everything there belonged to him because his ancestors lived there 2,000 years ago would you accept this blindly ? Can any other folk in the World lay claim to land under this premise ? Israel exists by virtue of a treaty which ignored Arabs completely and by the fact of Jews having subsequently lived there for 60+ years, nothing else. Not one single poster on here has denied Israel's right to exist - just asked for recognition of Palestinians rights to also exist as a nation. And, they do have a right. Upon the creation of the British mandate in then Palestine now Israel 90% of the population were Palestinian Arabs. During the 1948 Palestinian exodus around 711,000 refugees were created - people for whom the area now called Israel was home. Their descendants number around 4 million - all of whom had ancestors born in what is now Israel.

 

[Deleted 1]

Sorry - I thought I was replying to an interesting post you had put on here

So did I - Moncao's clearly having a boring day It was entertaining mind.

 

[Leo]

Aha ! Plagiarism eh. Some of the questions may however be taken down and used in future pub quizzes - so, thanks very much. Some of the stuff about Israel having a historical right to this land prompts the question - just how far do we have to go back ? If someone appeared on your doorstep with the claim that everything there belonged to him because his ancestors lived there 2,000 years ago would you accept this blindly ? Can any other folk in the World lay claim to land under this premise ? Israel exists by virtue of a treaty which ignored Arabs completely and by the fact of Jews having subsequently lived there for 60+ years, nothing else. Not one single poster on here has denied Israel's right to exist - just asked for recognition of Palestinians rights to also exist as a nation. And, they do have a right. Upon the creation of the British mandate in then Palestine now Israel 90% of the population were Palestinian Arabs. During the 1948 Palestinian exodus around 711,000 refugees were created - people for whom the area now called Israel was home. Their descendants number around 4 million - all of whom had ancestors born in what is now Israel.

So you are agreeing eh? Both Israel and Palestine have a "connexion" to land in that area - and neither anywhere else. The solution then is to find them both a way to co-exist peacefully in that area. Historic right to the land is not a science as otherwise we all have to move back to somewhere in Africa - the cradle of mankind. But if you can establish a pretty good case for a people to be in a certain place then you have a starting point.

 

[yellotoyou]

I have tried to stay out of this debate because i am so angry about what Israel is doing to children women and innocent men - and indeed what Hamas is doing hiding amongst them. But I feel I can be silent no more - Israel in my view are criminals - if just one child dies in the Uk it is a tragedy - but for Israel to kill hundreds is a crime of mass proportion. In my view the leaders of the west want to listen to the views of the vast majority of their people (no its not just the Guardian reading left - its most people) and take action against Israel - sanctions to being with including arms blockades. I have been to the middle east - some time ago now - working for a charity and my own observations are how the vast majority of Israelis want to destroy utterly the people in Gaza - they laugh at the destruction of their homes and children and to be honest their arrogance is deplorable. Yes Hamas is culpable too - but taking it all into proportion Israel is far more culpable to the murder of innocent people. It isn't a defence to say Israel is a democracy - Hitler was democratically elected too - and his genocide is rightly condemned - and so should Israel's be.

 

[geitungur akureyrar]

To me Hamas are playing a dangerous game. At some time the liberal politicians will wake up realise Hamas are hiding in schools and hospitals and causing danger to their own people and then they might lose support. I see what the ZDF are doing is wrong but if you are bothered by a mosquito you will try and squash it and this is what the Israeli armed forces are doing. Hamas are causing pain to normal Israelis and their army is responding.

Israel is in a strange place they defend themselves against a terror threat and are criticised. I accept that they give the heavy hand but how else are they to show Hamas they will not win.

The one thing I really cannot understand is if the cause of the Palestinians is so correct why do the other Arab nations help them. Egypt closes the Palestinian supply tunnels, Jordan does not like them, Lebanon has Hezbollah who I would think would want another chance to attack Israel but do not, Syria has its own problems and even Iran and Saudi Arabia do not want to give aid to them.

I have read through the comments and it has taken a long time.

 

[Hornette_TID]

I have tried to stay out of this debate because i am so angry about what Israel is doing to children women and innocent men - and indeed what Hamas is doing hiding amongst them. But I feel I can be silent no more - Israel in my view are criminals - if just one child dies in the Uk it is a tragedy - but for Israel to kill hundreds is a crime of mass proportion. In my view the leaders of the west want to listen to the views of the vast majority of their people (no its not just the Guardian reading left - its most people) and take action against Israel - sanctions to being with including arms blockades. I have been to the middle east - some time ago now - working for a charity and my own observations are how the vast majority of Israelis want to destroy utterly the people in Gaza - they laugh at the destruction of their homes and children and to be honest their arrogance is deplorable. Yes Hamas is culpable too - but taking it all into proportion Israel is far more culpable to the murder of innocent people. It isn't a defence to say Israel is a democracy - Hitler was democratically elected too - and his genocide is rightly condemned - and so should Israel's be.

gotta say yello, that's utter bollox..sorry.

 

[Bolton's Boots]

http://mp4.oireachtas.heanet.ie/archive/seanad/seanad_20140731T092959.000004.mp4

Hope this link works - one of a series of videos from Ireland's Seanad, 'statements on the situations in Gaza and Ukraine' made on 31/7/14. At around the 36:30 point there's an 8 minute speech by Senator David Norris which is well worth listening to.

 

[yellotoyou]

gotta say yello, that's utter bollox..sorry.

Sorry Hornette - I can only say as I experienced it first hand - I came across many Israelis during my time there and to a person they wanted to see the people in Gaza wiped out - not one of them had any sympathy for the people there. All the Israelis saw the women children and ordinary men as being terrorists which they aren't. Yes Hamas hide amongst them and that is dreadful too and I condemn them too but the power Israel has is far more than Hamas and the Israeli attitude to the lives of people whose only crime is to live where they live is utterly disgusting. Answer me this if Israel have any concern at all why do they kill children hiding in UN schools hospitals when they know that is what they will do every time they fire upon the hospitals and schools. Sorry but the bollox is with Israel and its people. I've met them remember.

 

[hornethologist a.k.a. theo]

I've stayed out of this one, largely because it's beyond my understanding how anyone can kill innocent children. Intellectually I can follow the arguments, but I find it impossible, especially now experiencing the joys of young grandchildren, to see how this can ever be right, whatever justification is offered.

 

[monacoger]

Sorry - I thought I was replying to an interesting post you had put on here

It was interesting and I was kidding about not reading it, it just so happens that I can't lay claim to writing it, although I wish I did.

 

[monacoger]

The following was also emailed to me and has been copy and pasted, going by what it says, it must be a few weeks old and I'm not even sure if he said it or not, but hopefully he did.

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu just made the following speech in front of the Knesset:

To Ismail Haniya, and the leaders and operatives of Hamas:



We, the people of Israel, owe you a huge debt of gratitude. You have succeeded where we have failed. Because never before, in the history of the modern State of Israel, has the Jewish people been so united, like one person with one heart. You stole three of our most precious children, and slaughtered them in cold blood. But before we could discover the horrible truth, we had 18 days of pain and anxiety while we searched for them, during
which our nation united as never before, in prayer, in hopes, in mutual support.

And now, as you continue to launch deadly missiles indiscriminately , intended to maim and murder as many civilians as possible, while you take cowardly refuge behind your own civilians - you continue to inspire us to hold strongly onto our newly discovered unity. Whatever disputes we Jews may have with each other, we now know that we have one common goal: we will defeat you.

But we are offering you now one last chance. Within 24 hours , all rocket fire - and I mean all rocket fire - will cease. Completely. Forever.

I give you formal notice that our tanks are massed at the Gaza border, with artillery and air support at the ready. We have already dropped leaflets over the northern parts of the Gaza strip, warning civilians of our impending arrival, and that they should evacuate southward, forthwith. If you fail to meet our ultimatum, we are coming in, and, with God's help, this time we will not leave. Every centimeter of land that we conquer will be annexed to Israel, so that there will never be another attack launched at our civilians from there.

Even so, we will continue to keep the door open to allow you to surrender gracefully. The moment you announce that you are laying down arms, we will halt our advance, and there we will draw our new borders. If you continue to attack our citizens, we will continue to roll southwards, driving you out of territory that you will never again contaminate with your evil presence.

It pains me deeply that your civilians will be made homeless. But we did not choose this war; you did. And if our choice is between allowing our citizens to be targeted mercilessly by your genocidal savagery, versus turning your civilians into refugees, I regret that we must choose the latter. If only you loved your people as much as you hate ours, this war would never have happened.



To the rest of the world: Israel has tired of your ceaseless chidings that we should "show restraint". When you have your entire population under constant missile fire from an implacable enemy whose stated goal is the murder every man, woman and child in your land, then you may come and talk to us about "restraint". Until then, we respectfully suggest that you keep your double standards to yourselves. This time, Hamas has gone too far, andwe will do whatever we have to in order to protect our population.

Hamas, once again, I thank you for bringing our people together with such clarity of mind and unity of purpose. The people of Israel do not fear the long road ahead.

 

[colognehornet]

I see that he does not qoute figures which could weaken his swollen speach here. Figures which show how many Israeli citizens have actually been maimed or killed by Palestinian rockets compared to the numbers of Palestinians who have died as a result of bombings, occupations etc. No, he has not quoted these, because he knows that the chances of being actually killed by those rockets which are not either shot down, or which land harmlessly in sand are lower than being struck by a passing car. In comparison we have bombed schools and hospitals on the other side. Now some on here have said that if you are troubled by a mosquito then you kill it - yes, but I do not kill 1,000 honey bees with the same blow. By the same logic you will tell me that it is o.k. to sink a whole ship because there is one criminal on it - or that a police force could legitimately shoot both criminals and hostages indiscriminately. Fact - If Palestinian terrorists were hiding out in a hospital or school which had Jewish children inside then not one shot would be fired by Israel. Why, because their lives would have had more value than Palestinian ones. This is the monster which we have given birth to - and I say we because we created Israel, I say we because every single bomb dropped by Israel has been either made or paid for by Americans, British or Germans. And when I say monster I do not mean the Jewish people here but rather the government of Israel sanctioned by the West. Compare for one moment. Putin annexes an area which had already declared itself independent, and which had a huge Russian majority living there which wanted neither to live under the Ukraine or under NATO's banner - he does it almost bloodlessly. Yet he immediately becomes public enemy number 1 in the World and nobody can talk about anything other than sanctions. Yet where is a similar outcry from our politicians in the case of Israel ?

 

[Hornette_TID]

I see that he does not qoute figures which could weaken his swollen speach here. Figures which show how many Israeli citizens have actually been maimed or killed by Palestinian rockets compared to the numbers of Palestinians who have died as a result of bombings, occupations etc. No, he has not quoted these, because he knows that the chances of being actually killed by those rockets which are not either shot down, or which land harmlessly in sand are lower than being struck by a passing car. In comparison we have bombed schools and hospitals on the other side. Now some on here have said that if you are troubled by a mosquito then you kill it - yes, but I do not kill 1,000 honey bees with the same blow. By the same logic you will tell me that it is o.k. to sink a whole ship because there is one criminal on it - or that a police force could legitimately shoot both criminals and hostages indiscriminately. Fact - If Palestinian terrorists were hiding out in a hospital or school which had Jewish children inside then not one shot would be fired by Israel. Why, because their lives would have had more value than Palestinian ones. This is the monster which we have given birth to - and I say we because we created Israel, I say we because every single bomb dropped by Israel has been either made or paid for by Americans, British or Germans. And when I say monster I do not mean the Jewish people here but rather the government of Israel sanctioned by the West. Compare for one moment. Putin annexes an area which had already declared itself independent, and which had a huge Russian majority living there which wanted neither to live under the Ukraine or under NATO's banner - he does it almost bloodlessly. Yet he immediately becomes public enemy number 1 in the World and nobody can talk about anything other than sanctions. Yet where is a similar outcry from our politicians in the case of Israel ?

So you condemn Israel for building shelters to protect their citizens where hamas build tunnels to smuggle arms to kill those same citizens? You condemn Israel for using the iron dome but not hamas for using children? You condemn Israel for feeling the bitterness of any death but not Hamas for rejoicing in Israeli death? You condemn Israel for the plight of the Palestinians but not the whole Arab world who use the Palestinians as pawns and a scapegoat in their fight to push Israel into the sea? Sorry Cologne, to me that makes no sense at all.

 

[Hornette_TID]

gotta say yello, that's utter bollox..sorry.

Sorry Hornette - I can only say as I experienced it first hand - I came across many Israelis during my time there and to a person they wanted to see the people in Gaza wiped out - not one of them had any sympathy for the people there. All the Israelis saw the women children and ordinary men as being terrorists which they aren't. Yes Hamas hide amongst them and that is dreadful too and I condemn them too but the power Israel has is far more than Hamas and the Israeli attitude to the lives of people whose only crime is to live where they live is utterly disgusting. Answer me this if Israel have any concern at all why do they kill children hiding in UN schools hospitals when they know that is what they will do every time they fire upon the hospitals and schools. Sorry but the bollox is with Israel and its people. I've met them remember.

I have lived in Israel. I have never known an Israeli say anything like what you describe. Israelis are not against Palestinians. Israelis are against Hamas and any person who wants Israelis dead..how weird to dislike someone who wants you dead! Israel always gives warnings when they fear there maybe children or innocent civilians within their target area. Hamas tell those people to stay put. Hamas does not value the lives of Palestinians and that is the problem. They would rather kill their own for the cause of seeing Israel destroyed.