How long do we give him?

[tipsycanary]

Now come on, there was a real chance we would get relegated last term, if it hadn't been for WBA not turning up that day we probably would have. If we had needed a result at Citeh on the last day do you think we would have got it? We'll never know of course but I would wager that we wouldn't have done, especially if Citeh had needed something from the game. It really was a close call and we were lucky, very lucky that neither side needed points and were 'on the beach'. As far as working on making us better, tell me what green shoots you see because I must admit I'm struggling to see any.

Don't think you can say we were lucky. We finished where we did after 38 games like everyone else. Although I concede it was not as comfortable as 11th place finish may suggest.

Where do you think we should be finishing then if 11th was lucky/not good enough???

 

[KIO]

right, so you'd accept tony pulis if it meant (no such thing but) guaranteed premier league football next season?

why are you so sure we'd go down under hughton? he guided us to our highest league finish in 20 years and has bought well. we've had a tough start and a lot of key injuries but we are far from cast adrift. i just don't get the vitriol. he just doesn't deserve it!

He only gets that from me on here, I would never hurl abuse at him or anyone else for that matter, at the ground that does no-one any good. Anyway Supers, my daughter needs a lift to her boyfriends' so we'll have to resume hostilities later, bye for now

 

[tipsycanary]

He only gets that from me on here, I would never hurl abuse at him or anyone else for that matter, at the ground that does no-one any good. Anyway Supers, my daughter needs a lift to her boyfriends' so we'll have to resume hostilities later, bye for now

Get her to bring her toothbrush this time. Cheers

 

[Russ Martin 2]

I would like to input into this argument if I may. The first thing we can all agree on is that so far this season, particularly the last couple of games things really haven't gone our way? Yes?

We are under-performing as a club because we are in the relegation zone, and depending on how much of an optimist/pessimist you are, you will quite possibly judge the situation to be more/less severe than it actually is. I think we have both types of people, and many in-between (like me) on this forum and in our great club's fan base.

For those who feel that we are really in dire straits they will be looking for someone to blame. As the manager and being so involved in the day-to-day management of the team I think it is part of Chris Hughton's job to accept criticism on behalf of the team as a whole, and I don't think he will be hurt by what some of the fans think of him as it is normal for a football manager to take flak.

What I do feel is unacceptable is racist abuse toward Hughton, which nobody on this forum would ever partake in and we are talking an incredibly small minority of our fans here. I also think booing our team is a step too far, but that Man City match certainly gave NCFC fans NOTHING to cheer about.

Ultimately, when the team does badly to some extent the fans are entitled to blame Hughton, even though some of us don't.

It is up Hughton to prove his doubters wrong. OTBC

 

[Swedish Dave]

what i'd like to know from the pro hughton folk, is at what point it will all this be too much for you?

Check out the recent poll on here. Fewer than 1 in 4 want him sacked right now. More than 50% want to review at the end of November or beyond.

On that evidence it seems reasonable to refer to a minority that want him sacked, although I'm told the last two voters were on the beach and the middle ten don't count

It will give me no pleasure to say 'I told you so' when CH finally gets the boot, but I'm bloody well going to do so because of all the grief I've been getting on here when I'm one of the few on here, (and only on here I might add), who can actually 'see the wood for the trees'

Aside from the fact that predicting a football manager's demise is akin to predicting that the tide will return, even if he went tomorrow it doesn't prove your views right. It would just prove that the board have reached the same conclusion, and that will include a consideration of whether he can regain your support. Your best hope to be proved right is to ensure he stays and gets us relegated.

 

[Bath-Canary]

what i'd like to know from the pro hughton folk, is at what point it will all this be too much for you? At what point will you forget those ten games and believe that to be the anomaly? would you want him in charge of next years promotion campaign should it come about? what has he done that so impresses you? aside from being one of the most likeable and decent faces in the prem, what is it that keeps you seemingly fairly certain that to lose hughton would lead to worse than what we are currently experiencing? where do you get your faith? what have you seen that we have missed?

Firstly yes I would very much want Hughton in charge if we were looking to get promoted from the championship, 102 points with newcastle in what would be a very similar situation say that he would be one of the most qualified for the job.

I think the point about how much would be too much is a rather simplistic way of looking at things, personally I see very little way that you can firmly judge our team based on the last 5 games, it will be the next few games that will be important. In terms of points were as close to 11th as we are to 20th and the average table position of our next 10 games is far easier than our previous 10. I'm very content to see Hughton in charge until the end of November and if were mid table then the next review point for me would be after the christmas period when we have played everyone.
Ultimately I'm and empiricist, there is no binary moment where i will switch and say right no i want him out and will never accept that he's our manager again, if it looks bad come the end of november I'll probably back a move to change manager, if despite that, we stick with Hughton and are doing well after christmas than I'll be happy to keep him.
Before the debacle that was last weeks excursions to manchester i had felt that the team was improving markedly we still looked to struggle a touch at linking up with our strikers but we had be doing far better at taking control of games even at point against Arsenal and Chelsea. however of all the "Outers" only Vietnam changed his position, he has since changed it back, but I feel that he to is responding to the ups and downs albeit with a lower threshold than i have, which is fine.

Edit: I should also note that if we lose on saturday I think the fans reaction could make Hughton's position untenable, regardless of what the performance looks like.

 

[Walsh.i.am]

Edit: I should also note that if we lose on saturday I think the fans reaction could make Hughton's position untenable, regardless of what the performance looks like.

Yet another good post, Bath. The saddest thing of all would be if fan pressure, rather than results / performances were to force McNally's hand in all of this. I think he (DM) is made of sterner stuff than that, but there will come a point.....or hopefully not

 

[RiverEndRick]

Interestingly enough, CH himself described it as 'an emotional game' where feelings can sway from week to week in the press conference today. We all go through a range of emotional responses, but the last 5 games, 4 of which were against CL teams, have tipped the balance heavily one-way. Gruffnuts has asked 'at what point it will all this be too much for you?' I can't speak for others, but I don't find it easy to predict when that would happen. The key thing for me is to stay in touch with the teams above us and we're near the bottom edge of that at the moment. The West Ham game should be winnable, but there is no predicting what will happen. I'm looking for a positive response from the whole team (like ManCity's after the Chelsea defeat), but there comes a time when results are needed. Will a good performance and a draw be enough? I don't rightly know. Like everyone (including West Ham fans), I want a win. That would change the direction and restore hope for the future, but the critical thing for me is staying in touch in this very tough league.

The other thing that was interesting in the press conference today was CH being adamant that City's formation is a 4-3-3 not a 4-5-1. This was becoming more obvious when Tettey was playing, but the key will be getting back to that and putting consistent pressure on West Ham. That is the other thing I will be looking for.

 

[Canary Rob]

Yet another good post, Bath. The saddest thing of all would be if fan pressure, rather than results / performances were to force McNally's hand in all of this. I think he (DM) is made of sterner stuff than that, but there will come a point.....or hopefully not

I'm not so sure - fan pressure is almost always tied to results and performances - one getting bad accelerates the other. Fan pressure is a good reason to get rid of a manager, if only because it will unite the crowd. The important point for McNally, though, is differentiating between vocal minority and genuine majority fan opposition.

 

[Canary Rob]

i do agree with this rob.

but isn't that a sad state of affairs that a perfectly capable manager may lose his job and possibly even end up replaced by a poorer manager because of fans impatience?

Yes, I suppose it is, but that is a fairly typical situation in football and, frankly, if we were all very pragmatic about it I'm not sure football would be half as fun or inspire quite such strong feelings in people. My concern is that we lose a manager who would keep us up where others couldn't due to fan pressure, not too fussed about losing a manager because they're good. Right now, we are at the tricky point where no one can really say for sure whether: (a) the entire squad is behind the manager; or (b) Hughton has lost a significant section of the Norwich crowd for good. My suspicion is that the answer to both is no. That's a little confusing in my head, but basically I'm trying to say that Hughton appears close to having unhappy players, which is remediable, and a growing number of the crowd are opposed to him, but at this stage this remains remediable. So he is on thin ice. He needs results, fast, or he real,y has to go because the crowd will be completely opposed and players' performances will drop.

The two things I will say that I am confident about are:
(a) McNally will pick the right replacement in any event
(b) whether it is Hughton or A N Other who is our manager, we will go on a ridiculous run of good results between mid-December and late March. When this happens, I hope everyone bears this in mind - if it's a new manager, it won't be because they're that much better than Hughton and if it's Hughton it won't be because he's suddenly changed.

 

[Canary Rob]

if he turns it around now it really will be one of football's biggest achievements

This is an interesting one, why do you think that?

I suppose I should really ask what "if he turns it around" means to you? You later talk about just staying up.

In order to stay up, all we have to do is achieve three of the below to the end of this season:
1. Match Crystal Palace's points tally
2. Match Sunderland's points tally
3. Beat Stoke's points tally by two
4. Beat Fulham's points tally by three
5. Beat West Ham's points tally by three
Etc., etc.

Given that we've played harder matches than each of those teams, I don't for a moment think this will be a problem. If Hughton manages to keep his job, which I'm positive will require at least four points from our next three matches, possibly even six, then I for one won't be hailing him a miracle maker at the end of the season! I might have to hold you to that


If, on the other hand, you mean it would be a miracle to turn the crowd around, I'm not so sure. Wins is all it needs. I agree that some of the crowd may be "not for turning", but I think they're very few. I think most are like me - wavering... Or like you, recently wavered, neither of which are irresolvable!

 

[GozoCanary]

"however of all the "Outers" only Vietnam changed his position, he has since changed it back, but I feel that he to is responding to the ups and downs albeit with a lower threshold than i have"

I know it looks like I have flipped back and forth more often than a politician on an election campaign, but in my defence, I'd say I have been consistent in criticising the awful quality of the performances rather than the results. In certain games this year the performance has improved and there are signs that we are trying to add more variety to our game, and that makes me happy. And I'm not jittery because we're in the bottom three, because that can quickly be rectified. But can CH take us on to 'the next level'?

My position now is very confused. I think I have finally come to the conclusion that Hughton is a decent manager, but only that. He needs to learn a lot of new tricks, though, and he just seems too one-dimensional and inflexible to do that. On the other hand, most of the names being mentioned as possible successors are at his level or below, in my opinion, so I don't see the point in sacking him for more of the same. The quality of the football matters a lot to me, so no way would I even consider Pulis or his ilk.

Most of all, I'm glad I'm not McNally. The decisions he faces now are tough and they will probably define the long-term future of our club.

 

[Brian Storm]

Alright lads, Sunderland fan in peace. I think you should stick with him for the season, besides there's nobody available who could do a better job imo. You've signed some good players but they need time. You're more than got enough to stay up and you've got a decent manager there. Keep the faith lads and good luck for the rest of the season.

 

[Canary Rob]

"however of all the "Outers" only Vietnam changed his position, he has since changed it back, but I feel that he to is responding to the ups and downs albeit with a lower threshold than i have"

I know it looks like I have flipped back and forth more often than a politician on an election campaign, but in my defence, I'd say I have been consistent in criticising the awful quality of the performances rather than the results. In certain games this year the performance has improved and there are signs that we are trying to add more variety to our game, and that makes me happy. And I'm not jittery because we're in the bottom three, because that can quickly be rectified. But can CH take us on to 'the next level'?

My position now is very confused. I think I have finally come to the conclusion that Hughton is a decent manager, but only that. He needs to learn a lot of new tricks, though, and he just seems too one-dimensional and inflexible to do that. On the other hand, most of the names being mentioned as possible successors are at his level or below, in my opinion, so I don't see the point in sacking him for more of the same. The quality of the football matters a lot to me, so no way would I even consider Pulis or his ilk.

Most of all, I'm glad I'm not McNally. The decisions he faces now are tough and they will probably define the long-term future of our club.

Only a fools and dead mean don't change their mind. Fools won't. Dead men can't.

 

[Bath-Canary]

"however of all the "Outers" only Vietnam changed his position, he has since changed it back, but I feel that he to is responding to the ups and downs albeit with a lower threshold than i have"

I know it looks like I have flipped back and forth more often than a politician on an election campaign, but in my defence, I'd say I have been consistent in criticising the awful quality of the performances rather than the results. In certain games this year the performance has improved and there are signs that we are trying to add more variety to our game, and that makes me happy. And I'm not jittery because we're in the bottom three, because that can quickly be rectified. But can CH take us on to 'the next level'?

My position now is very confused. I think I have finally come to the conclusion that Hughton is a decent manager, but only that. He needs to learn a lot of new tricks, though, and he just seems too one-dimensional and inflexible to do that. On the other hand, most of the names being mentioned as possible successors are at his level or below, in my opinion, so I don't see the point in sacking him for more of the same. The quality of the football matters a lot to me, so no way would I even consider Pulis or his ilk.

Most of all, I'm glad I'm not McNally. The decisions he faces now are tough and they will probably define the long-term future of our club.

Very reasonable position

 

[DHCanary]

But can CH take us on to 'the next level'?

What is the next level for us though?

It took Moyes 10 years to take Everton from promotion to their current position, it took Pulis, what, seven years to establish Stoke as a mid-table Premier League side. Realistically, it's going to take us potentially another three or four seasons before we can look at the teams in the league at the start of a season and say: "Yep, it's unlikely we'll be in a relegation scrap". So the next thing to look at is playing better football- Stoke stuck to the same policy for nearly all of Pulis' tenure, with the style only beginning to change in his final season. Now either Pulis has done that because it's his ideal of the beautiful game, or he felt that style was still required to keep them up. To his credit, Hughton is already trying to play better football than that that kept us up last season, and he's certainly brought in the players to do that. It would have been easy to bring in a big, burly target man and try and play like last season just with better players, but he hasn't. If anything, this season shows that CH isn't inflexible and one dimensional, he is prepared to try and evolve a side. That's not to say everything's working perfectly, but I'd argue it's a braver way to have gone about this season, and whilst league position makes me slightly nervous, I'm glad he's gone the way he has.

 

[GozoCanary]

What is the next level for us though?

It took Moyes 10 years to take Everton from promotion to their current position, it took Pulis, what, seven years to establish Stoke as a mid-table Premier League side. Realistically, it's going to take us potentially another three or four seasons before we can look at the teams in the league at the start of a season and say: "Yep, it's unlikely we'll be in a relegation scrap". So the next thing to look at is playing better football- Stoke stuck to the same policy for nearly all of Pulis' tenure, with the style only beginning to change in his final season. Now either Pulis has done that because it's his ideal of the beautiful game, or he felt that style was still required to keep them up. To his credit, Hughton is already trying to play better football than that that kept us up last season, and he's certainly brought in the players to do that. It would have been easy to bring in a big, burly target man and try and play like last season just with better players, but he hasn't. If anything, this season shows that CH isn't inflexible and one dimensional, he is prepared to try and evolve a side. That's not to say everything's working perfectly, but I'd argue it's a braver way to have gone about this season, and whilst league position makes me slightly nervous, I'm glad he's gone the way he has.

Agree totally with the first highlighted point. Surviving more attractively should be our aim this season.

Not sure I agree on the second. I think it's fair to say that he is TRYING to evolve the side and change the style, but I'm not sure he can do. I recognise that this is pure speculation on my part, but I just get the feeling that he doesn't have the temperament to let go and trust in the creativity of his players. So we end up with a 'half-way house' which fails in terms of both attack and defence, which is where I feel we have been for most of this season.

 

[Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed]

Yes, I suppose it is, but that is a fairly typical situation in football and, frankly, if we were all very pragmatic about it I'm not sure football would be half as fun or inspire quite such strong feelings in people. My concern is that we lose a manager who would keep us up where others couldn't due to fan pressure, not too fussed about losing a manager because they're good. Right now, we are at the tricky point where no one can really say for sure whether: (a) the entire squad is behind the manager; or (b) Hughton has lost a significant section of the Norwich crowd for good. My suspicion is that the answer to both is no. That's a little confusing in my head, but basically I'm trying to say that Hughton appears close to having unhappy players, which is remediable, and a growing number of the crowd are opposed to him, but at this stage this remains remediable. So he is on thin ice. He needs results, fast, or he real,y has to go because the crowd will be completely opposed and players' performances will drop.

The two things I will say that I am confident about are:
(a) McNally will pick the right replacement in any event
(b) whether it is Hughton or A N Other who is our manager, we will go on a ridiculous run of good results between mid-December and late March. When this happens, I hope everyone bears this in mind - if it's a new manager, it won't be because they're that much better than Hughton and if it's Hughton it won't be because he's suddenly changed.

funnily enough rob, you've posted my answer in your reply to cromer! fan pressure is all very well but it is still a vocal minority that are the ones heaping unreasonable pressure on him while the majority are either fully backing him or in the middle somewhere. would it be justified to sack a manager because a percentage of say, 25% of the full fan base want him out? that seems ridiculous to me and i'm not even convinced its that high. if the majority of the crowd turn on a match day i think that is when you have to accept that its a long way back for any manager, especially if it happens more than once. but i don't think there was any more than around 200-300 people who vocally turned on him inside carrow road this season. if that goes up to 2-3k then it gets difficult and if it turns to two sides of the ground then its over as far as i'm concerned. no way back. the impression i get is that most people who are only going to home games are still fully behind him, those who go to away games as well are more evenly split, with some backing him, some on the fence and some who would like to see change. i think the small section of fans who are dead set against the manager are giving a slightly lopsided view of the general consensus which to me, seems split at worst, certainly not overwhelming in any belief he should be removed.

all managers should come under scrutiny and pressure - that's normal i just feel there is an element putting him under unrealistic pressure as well. i agree with this by the way:

(b) whether it is Hughton or A N Other who is our manager, we will go on a ridiculous run of good results between mid-December and late March. When this happens, I hope everyone bears this in mind - if it's a new manager, it won't be because they're that much better than Hughton and if it's Hughton it won't be because he's suddenly changed.

that's another reason why i'm still backing hughton. we have a good run of fixtures during mid-to-late season. i have total faith in hughton to keep us up this season, so why would i want to see him changed and take a risk on someone who might not? of course we might get someone better but as we all know from doing our own research, there isn't a lot of choice out there. if people trust mcnally - and he's never given us any reason not to imo - why are people not trusting his judgement to appoint hughton? if you think he's got it wrong with this appointment then that means mcnally's hit rate is 50/50, so by theory he only has a 50/50 chance of getting the next appointment right. i feel he has got both appointments right, but its not me who is worried by the current manager's abilities!!

 

[Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed]

"however of all the "Outers" only Vietnam changed his position, he has since changed it back, but I feel that he to is responding to the ups and downs albeit with a lower threshold than i have"

I know it looks like I have flipped back and forth more often than a politician on an election campaign, but in my defence, I'd say I have been consistent in criticising the awful quality of the performances rather than the results. In certain games this year the performance has improved and there are signs that we are trying to add more variety to our game, and that makes me happy. And I'm not jittery because we're in the bottom three, because that can quickly be rectified. But can CH take us on to 'the next level'?

My position now is very confused. I think I have finally come to the conclusion that Hughton is a decent manager, but only that. He needs to learn a lot of new tricks, though, and he just seems too one-dimensional and inflexible to do that. On the other hand, most of the names being mentioned as possible successors are at his level or below, in my opinion, so I don't see the point in sacking him for more of the same. The quality of the football matters a lot to me, so no way would I even consider Pulis or his ilk.

Most of all, I'm glad I'm not McNally. The decisions he faces now are tough and they will probably define the long-term future of our club.

i think vietnam probably speaks for a large number of fans - more than those who fully back him or are completely against him. right, slap bang in the middle ground. this would suggest it might not take a huge amount to swing it one way or the other which rob has also indicated on this thread and which i agree with. i think vietnam has slightly unrealistic expectations but they are by no means unrealistic in the long term. many want far too much, too soon - vietnam doesn't but he does want more than he's getting right now and imo perhaps a little more than we should expect which means he's slightly disappointed. to reach the next level, as DH has indicated on his excellent post above, is not a quick process. for us, the next level would be pushing for europe i suppose or winning a cup, but for now the priority will be to remain in the premier league long term. the fun stuff can follow in years to come but we are still in a period of transition, which i know some people hate me saying, and i know they hate me talking about patience, blah blah blah, but i'm sorry - it is essential if you want norwich city to EVER move to the 'next level'. we are not at a stage where we can expect to move to the 'next level' yet which again leads me back to fans over-expectations this season. had we signed both alderweireld and toivonen in the summer then i think we'd have stood an excellent chance of making major progress this season. unfortunately they didn't come off but they might next summer. people felt we could finish top ten - i certainly did and still do, but the key word there is COULD. not 'should', not 'will'. we were always going to be in the mix for relegation, even if we finish in the top ten because the teams in the bottom 12 are so evenly matched.

 

[Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed]

Agree totally with the first highlighted point. Surviving more attractively should be our aim this season.

Not sure I agree on the second. I think it's fair to say that he is TRYING to evolve the side and change the style, but I'm not sure he can do. I recognise that this is pure speculation on my part, but I just get the feeling that he doesn't have the temperament to let go and trust in the creativity of his players. So we end up with a 'half-way house' which fails in terms of both attack and defence, which is where I feel we have been for most of this season.

again, this is slight over-expectation. to progress a style from one to another involves a 'half-way house' stage. we are in that right now and might be for a considerable amount of this season. he can't just say 'right, i'm changing the style'. it needs to be eased in and we've seen plenty of signs of him doing this. this, despite people suggesting otherwise, shows that he has awareness tactically and is flexible in what he does. its not a quick fix though.