What if Red Bull and Vettel were cheating?

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There is no way, on this planet, that Vettel has suddenly got an extra second a lap in his pocket through him being a brilliant driver. He is, of course, but that doesn't make any sort of logical sense as an explanation. The difference between the break and after is genuinely astounding. So, if we discount Vettel's talent incomprehensibly rising in a greater than exponential way, we MUST look at the car and it's components.

The interesting questions for me are;
- whether the technological advancement is legal, as is the point of the thread... I'd say it's 50-50, given Red Bull's past. Remember them using illegal maps etc for half a season, and the FIA not taking points from them.
- whether Webber has been given identical equipment. Judging by performances, it doesn't immediately strike me that he's had dramatic improvement, though he is on pole for tomorrow.
- if he hasn't got the same equipment, why not? I think his inevitable autobiography will be interesting.
- if they have identical equipment, it is possible that the new technology has been designed to enhance Vettel's attributes. If that is the case, could we see teams try to determine a specific characteristic they wish to enhance in future drivers because it will lead to the quickest race-cars?
- if the most interesting thing about this season is the conspiracy theories, why should we bother to even turn on the TV for the next races? Let's be honest. It's a borathon now. I know that sort of terminology splits camps, between "traditionalists" (you aren't traditionalists, you're just older... congrats on being born first) who recite the "listen ere sonny... back in my day we used to watch cars go round in procession every lap, knowing who the winner'd be, and we were just happy listening to the cars making beautiful harmony! That was before WW2 o'course, when I had a ration book and met this girl, Freda, I think she was called, she had a bonnet and pretty hair, and I met her on the way to the dentist with old Bill. Now Bill was a wrong-un if ever I saw one... etc etc" mantra (YAWN) of incoming death, and the new breed of fan who watches sport for excitement. WOW. Can you imagine the shock on the old codger's faces now... We must be TERRIBLE FANS to want to see something that's in anyway interesting or captivating. Shame you aren't saying that when you need our assistance to go for s*** <ok> F1 is boring when one man wins all the races for seasons upon seasons, so stop being cowards and admit it.

The standard response to the latter'll be "piss off then and don't watch it"... Quite simple really, I won't. And others won't either, until it's just the old codgers sitting in deck chairs who watch, the sport loses TV and money, and you're back to grumbling between yourselves about the good old days <ok>
 
dhel said:
Seems like that kers system has a lot to do it because he almost ran off track in that corner... It just shows that without him being favored and having that "extra help" Webber would eat him alive. Imagine Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi with that red bull with all those extras...hmmmmmm
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keep taking your tablets, I'm sure you'll return to reality sooner or later, Webber 'eat him alive' Webber was less than .2 seconds ahead with a fully working kers, Vettel had no KERS.
If you want to have a pop at someone who seems to be a serial cheat, have a pop at Hamilton, the Mercedes tyre test is the 3rd time in 6 years he's been caught cheating.
 
BrightLampShade said:
Must be the Japanese water, even di resta was praising the team over himself.
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to be fair Vettel has only once had a dig at Webber on camera, when he called him 2 faced, and he isn't the first team-mate of Webbers to say it either, so, to use a phrase that's been said on here "there's no smoke without fire".
Di Resta's comments were probably more aimed towards keeping his race seat with a bit of arse licking after failing to score a single point for the last 6 or 7 races.
 
TheJudeanPeoplesFront said:
There is no way, on this planet, that Vettel has suddenly got an extra second a lap in his pocket through him being a brilliant driver. He is, of course, but that doesn't make any sort of logical sense as an explanation. The difference between the break and after is genuinely astounding. So, if we discount Vettel's talent incomprehensibly rising in a greater than exponential way, we MUST look at the car and it's components.

The interesting questions for me are;
- whether the technological advancement is legal, as is the point of the thread... I'd say it's 50-50, given Red Bull's past. Remember them using illegal maps etc for half a season, and the FIA not taking points from them.
- whether Webber has been given identical equipment. Judging by performances, it doesn't immediately strike me that he's had dramatic improvement, though he is on pole for tomorrow.
- if he hasn't got the same equipment, why not? I think his inevitable autobiography will be interesting.
- if they have identical equipment, it is possible that the new technology has been designed to enhance Vettel's attributes. If that is the case, could we see teams try to determine a specific characteristic they wish to enhance in future drivers because it will lead to the quickest race-cars?
- if the most interesting thing about this season is the conspiracy theories, why should we bother to even turn on the TV for the next races? Let's be honest. It's a borathon now. I know that sort of terminology splits camps, between "traditionalists" (you aren't traditionalists, you're just older... congrats on being born first) who recite the "listen ere sonny... back in my day we used to watch cars go round in procession every lap, knowing who the winner'd be, and we were just happy listening to the cars making beautiful harmony! That was before WW2 o'course, when I had a ration book and met this girl, Freda, I think she was called, she had a bonnet and pretty hair, and I met her on the way to the dentist with old Bill. Now Bill was a wrong-un if ever I saw one... etc etc" mantra (YAWN) of incoming death, and the new breed of fan who watches sport for excitement. WOW. Can you imagine the shock on the old codger's faces now... We must be TERRIBLE FANS to want to see something that's in anyway interesting or captivating. Shame you aren't saying that when you need our assistance to go for s*** <ok> F1 is boring when one man wins all the races for seasons upon seasons, so stop being cowards and admit it.

The standard response to the latter'll be "piss off then and don't watch it"... Quite simple really, I won't. And others won't either, until it's just the old codgers sitting in deck chairs who watch, the sport loses TV and money, and you're back to grumbling between yourselves about the good old days <ok>
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You seem to totally ignore the fact that the tyres construction was changed, as for 'the old days' actually it was far more open as cars went bang a hell of a lot more often than they do now, and there was no F1 pre WW2. As to Webber being given the same equipment, yeah, he has (although for sure his autobiography will make lots of wild accusations, the guys a born manipulator of facts, as wing-gate showed), he just isn't at the same standard talent wise, which is why he has a sum total of 0 championship wins at any level, unlike Vettel who won a string of them before Helmut and RBR got involved, of course if you wish to live in the same fairytale land with Dhel it's up to you.
 
Miggins said:
keep taking your tablets, I'm sure you'll return to reality sooner or later, Webber 'eat him alive' Webber was less than .2 seconds ahead with a fully working kers, Vettel had no KERS.
If you want to have a pop at someone who seems to be a serial cheat, have a pop at Hamilton, the Mercedes tyre test is the 3rd time in 6 years he's been caught cheating.
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As I said before. Red Bull usually takes apart Vettel's car right after FP3 then all of a sudden it's more than a second faster than everybody else. And last session proved my point. They did just that before Q1 and all of a sudden he was quicker than everybody. I guess the "smart" kers "aid" system failed which caused his Red Bull which normally sticks to the track in corners, to run wide and for once he found himself struggling. He had kers back for the final run but maybe the smart system wasn't functioning properly...
In the question session he looked really distraught...almost as if he best friend had died. Maybe his best friend didn't die, but maybe he was very sick in qualifying....lol

I am sure you saw what I saw and El_Bando seems to have recognized this too, that when Vettel ran wide and was having trouble controlling the car, the first thing he said was : Kers Gone...I've lost Kers! So once again Miggins, is Vettel and Red Bull using a "smart" Kers aid to assist in traction control?
Maybe Cosicave will give his opinion on what it looked like. But as I said earlier...Vettel looked like his best friend died after qualifying.
 
I think you'll find that most teams take their cars apart between fp3 and Q1 to check everything over. My dads car was always in bits between races, as were most of his competitors. personally I'd love to be sitting next to you with a kleenex when SV wins his 4th WDC and webber once again fails to make the podium
 
Miggins said:
I think you'll find that most teams take their cars apart between fp3 and Q1 to check everything over. My dads car was always in bits between races, as were most of his competitors. personally I'd love to be sitting next to you with a kleenex when SV wins his 4th WDC and webber once again fails to make the podium
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I have no problem with Vettel winning....but that still doesn't mean people wouldn't ask the question. When mercedes did their so called secret test I am sure you were asking questions too right? So if certain things point to traction control aid then we must ask the question to right? Fair?
 
Anyway have to run to my office now but we will continue the discussion.... Good luck for the race on Sunday.
 
Miggins said:
You seem to totally ignore the fact that the tyres construction was changed, as for 'the old days' actually it was far more open as cars went bang a hell of a lot more often than they do now, and there was no F1 pre WW2. As to Webber being given the same equipment, yeah, he has (although for sure his autobiography will make lots of wild accusations, the guys a born manipulator of facts, as wing-gate showed), he just isn't at the same standard talent wise, which is why he has a sum total of 0 championship wins at any level, unlike Vettel who won a string of them before Helmut and RBR got involved, of course if you wish to live in the same fairytale land with Dhel it's up to you.
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How utterly boring... "Oh it must just be the tyres and Vettel's superior talent"... Yeah, we're the deluded ones <doh>
 
Miggins:5469276 said:
ah, it's nice to see a RBR driver being magnanimous when being beaten by his team-mate rather than go looking for a camera to whine into.
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Vettel says "Congratulations to Mark, he did a very good lap. We did have an issue in qualifying, but I'm not a big fan of 'without this', 'with this'.

Then why mention it? :p
 
SgtBhaji said:
Vettel says "Congratulations to Mark, he did a very good lap. We did have an issue in qualifying, but I'm not a big fan of 'without this', 'with this'.

Then why mention it? :p
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Also why did he look as if he wanted to poop but was afraid the others would hear.... He looked as if he wanted to cry at the question session after the qualifying. Did he get bad news about his Kers "Smart" aid system? Was he worried that he wouldn't be able to carry the speed into corners like he has been doing? He he isn't a big fan of without this or without that he would have just said congrats to Mark, he did a great lap. People were crucifying Mark even though he had been having all the Kers and clutch problems, now he is crying because his traction control...sorry Kers Smart System didnt work... Mark did a great lap and he didnt put up his finger.

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TheJudeanPeoplesFront said:
How utterly boring... "Oh it must just be the tyres and Vettel's superior talent"... Yeah, we're the deluded ones <doh>
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3 teams were against the tyre change, Ferrari, Lotus and Force India, 2 of those teams, Ferrari and Lotus, were RBR's only real challengers, and you only have to take a cursory look at the contrasting fortunes of Force India and Sauber to see how much of a difference it has made to some teams, Alosno has even categorically stated that his title ambitions effectively ended when the decision to change the tyre construction was made, and Lotus can't even pay their lead driver his wages, so how are they going to pay for the R&D for the upgrades needed to keep pace?

If you want to blame someone, blame Ecclestone rather than RBR for designing a fantastic car (again) or Vettel for being too damn good, it was his idea to make racing exciting by demanding a tyre that would wear out quickly and cause more races like Canada 2010, (any non-senile fool could see that would never work) which in turn caused Silverstone 2013 and forced, through safety concerns, the situation in which we now reside, without the exploding tyres fiasco they wouldn't have been changed and the title would still probably be up for grabs.
 
http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/v...ely_to_adhere_Red_Bull_team_orders_at_Suzuka/
This should be interesting...but as usual, Webber will suffer a clutch problem and he will move from No1 to No1 6 before the first corner.. Ask Red Bull.

Webber unlikely to adhere Red Bull team orders at Suzuka

12 October, 2013
Sebastian Vettel and pole sitter Mark Webber after Suzuka qualifying

Sebastian Vettel and pole sitter Mark Webber after Suzuka qualifying

Mark Webber does not sound like he is willing to move over for his teammate Sebastian Vettel at Suzuka.

With Vettel looking to put his fourth title away on Sunday, the German encountered problems in qualifying with a KERS failure aboard his Red Bull.

But he will be crowned champion in Japan if he wins and Fernando Alonso is ninth or lower.

Retiring teammate Webber on pole is therefore not part of the ideal plan, particularly with memories of the &#8216;Multi-21&#8242; team orders affair still lingering.

Asked if the drivers will be free to race on Sunday, team boss Christian Horner said coyly after qualifying: &#8220;They will do the best they can for the team.&#8221;

Webber was more specific as he played down the likelihood of following a &#8216;team&#8217; plan.

&#8220;Seb&#8217;s had a phenomenal year,&#8221; said the Suzuka pole sitter. &#8220;He will do his race, I will do my race.&#8221;

Webber hinted that with Vettel so far ahead in the points standings, and with several races still to run in 2013, his ears are not open to team orders.

&#8220;It&#8217;s not like it&#8217;s the last race of the championship, obviously, in terms of what can unfold or whatever,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;Normally you talk about these things and they never happen but in general, yeah, we&#8217;ll be there for ourselves tomorrow.&#8221; (GMM)
 
and this is what Webber said about his lap and what he is given at Red Bull

MARK WEBBER
I've had a few laps in qualifying where I've had to attempt to qualify as best as I can without all the weapons as well and today we had the weapons sharp and we did a pretty good job on a phenomenal circuit.
 
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