Qatar 2022

[Spudulike]

And you think allowing these workers to leave these jobs is really going to tackle the problem? What happens if a hundred workers up sticks one day and leave? The construction company brings in a hundred other poor mugs into exactly the same situation and nothing changes. It becomes a conveyor belt of human rights abuse.

My point is that without all the other human rights abuses (working hours, living conditions etc.), these workers wouldn't give a rats arse that they didn't have their passport, as they'd be content in their job, and making money to send back to their families. They agreed to move to Qatar to do a specific job where various promises were made, the problem is these promises haven't been kept. If they had been kept, there would be no reason to want to leave.

Wages, working hours and living standards - These are the things that need to be tackled to make a real change, obviously in an ideal world these workers would also have their passports, but I don't see it as top of the agenda, it's treating the symptoms of abuse rather than the cause.

Also I think it's a bit of a fantasy to think that these Nepalese labourers, with no language skills, little education etc, have a huge number of employment opportunities in Qatar, outside of construction, where these malpractices are pretty widespread across the industry.

P.S. No need for the aggressively patronising tone

A lot of these workers aren't even getting paid. So why would anyone want to stay in those conditions and possibly go home in a casket to their wives? I'd rather go of my own free will but with no passport, you're ****ed.

[video=youtube;sALJPvu1GXw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sALJPvu1GXw[/video]

 

[RobSpur]

having your passport doesnt get you out of qatar.

unless you have a senior manager's visa, then you need a letter from your employer every time you want to leave the country. no letter, no exit.

 

[RobSpur]

Having watched the video above, I have to say that I have changed my mind to an extent, certainly in regards to the principle of giving workers better conditions.

That doesn't solve the practical problem though, which is that this isn't a problem which is by any means unique to qatar, and it isn't a problem which is directly caused by the qatari government.

The workers arent employed by the government, they are employed by contractors who exploit the workers, and who have to pay low salaries in order to win the jobs.

The government could bring in a minimum wage for new jobs, but it's hard to see how they can regulate as to the standard of accommodation provided, or regulate against some people dieing. there are hundreds of thousands of labourers in qatar, and by the law of averages some are going to die.

the government could change it's visa laws and also make it illegal for employers to retain passports, but that would be a massive change which would be at odds with the way of things throughout the middle east, and probably throughout the whole of asia. i can't see it happening overnight, and even if it did happen, it wouldnt change the fact that there are others all over asia in the same position.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Don't other countries have health and safety laws, Rob? Are they not an option for the country with the highest GDP per capita in the world?
There may be other countries with similar issues, but they're not holding a tournament which attracts a massive media spotlight and all that entails.

 

[deedub93]

I've worked and lived in Eritrea, what their government does to it's own citizens is a disgrace. No wonder they risk their lives on leaky old boats to try to get to Europe. I've worked elsewhere in war-torn Africa in places like Sierra Leone and Liberia and people struggle as well. International sanctions don't help countries like Eritrea, it just gives the leaders someone else to blame which keeps them in power. Qatar is different, rich bosses and cheap labour so I understand, a bit like the imperial power that fuelled European (including British) growth. If anyone ever figures a solution I love to hear it. My thoughts are to get rid of borders and have a true worldwide free market economy, but that will never happen, too many have too much to lose.

And PNP, lip service is paid to Health and Safety, many health and safety professionals try very hard to install a health and safety culture and to some extent succeed, PPE etc., however, when it comes down to getting in the way of a project, i.e. delay it, H&S goes out of the window. Also the locals don't help, I've had to sack workers for sheltering from the sun under the drum of a roller rather than walk a few hundred yards to get under cover that we provided.

 

[littleDinosaurLuke]

FIFA want to spread football's message (whatever it is) to all parts of the globe. Everyone is one big happy family.

Just don't mention injustice, inequality, breaches of human rights etc.

 

[RobSpur]

This isnt a health and safety issue primarily as i see it, it's about people being paid a reasonable amount, being paid on time, given reasonable living conditions, and being given freedom of movement. maybe there are issues with working in the heat, but as with other gulf countries, i believe qatar already has laws about working in the middle of the day during summer time; there's not much more you can do.

what surprises me really about this, is that just as fifa didn't seem to know that qatar got hot in the summer, people in general now don't seem to have been aware that there's a third world. not everyone is lucky enough to be worrying about how they're going to afford school fees, or buy a bigger car; the majority of the world's population is wondering how they are going to be able to afford to live in a house with a toilet or to be able to eat healthily. what we're seeing in qatar is just the tip of the iceberg, and it will take more than a world cup to sort it out.

 

[Boss]

This isnt a health and safety issue primarily as i see it, it's about people being paid a reasonable amount, being paid on time, given reasonable living conditions, and being given freedom of movement. maybe there are issues with working in the heat, but as with other gulf countries, i believe qatar already has laws about working in the middle of the day during summer time; there's not much more you can do.

what surprises me really about this, is that just as fifa didn't seem to know that qatar got hot in the summer, people in general now don't seem to have been aware that there's a third world. not everyone is lucky enough to be worrying about how they're going to afford school fees, or buy a bigger car; the majority of the world's population is wondering how they are going to be able to afford to live in a house with a toilet or to be able to eat healthily. what we're seeing in qatar is just the tip of the iceberg, and it will take more than a world cup to sort it out.

Fifa did know it was too hot in the summer but the cynic in me says the plan was always to stage a winter world cup, and this was agreed before the bid was accepted.

 

[Wandering Yid]

This isnt a health and safety issue primarily as i see it, it's about people being paid a reasonable amount, being paid on time, given reasonable living conditions, and being given freedom of movement. maybe there are issues with working in the heat, but as with other gulf countries, i believe qatar already has laws about working in the middle of the day during summer time; there's not much more you can do.

what surprises me really about this, is that just as fifa didn't seem to know that qatar got hot in the summer, people in general now don't seem to have been aware that there's a third world. not everyone is lucky enough to be worrying about how they're going to afford school fees, or buy a bigger car; the majority of the world's population is wondering how they are going to be able to afford to live in a house with a toilet or to be able to eat healthily. what we're seeing in qatar is just the tip of the iceberg, and it will take more than a world cup to sort it out.

You seem to be missing the point Rob. Qatar is not a 'Third World' country, it's the richest country in the world. It's not a problem of poverty, it's a problem of culture. In this country we've spent the last 200 years gradually embracing liberalism, slowly coming to a situation where manual labourers have the same basic legal rights as the established elite. In Qatar your rights are still dictated by the thickness of your wallet and the volume of your voice.

They're a country who have all the capability to treat their workforce as humans, but none of the desire to do so.

 

[notsosmartspur]

The Beeb ended their main tv news coverage yesterday with a real food for thought statement "Fifa not fit for purpose".

I've said before get rid of them, its a hell of an undertaking I know, but a new governing body, or a rebrand from the existing, I don't know anything to freshen the thing up. To now be admitting such an epic oversight of heat in a part of the world where its all you get, by all these 'experts', not one considered...weather! or more to the point, the safety of the participants...not fit for purpose if players don't come first.

I would like to see all national FA's boycott 2022, tell fifa to poke it, make it a dead year, no comp, great for club football, and more than enough time to sort the next one, get officials re-licensed under whatever guise etc.

I just think there's a golden opportunity here to be rid of this disgusting group of men ruining the game for financial gain only. Why for instance do all these fifa buildings have to be so plush, meetings in exotic locations, unecessary, I can see more meetings about where to have meetings than ones about football!

 

[No Kane No Gain]

The trouble is their's no one outside of their organisation that can hold them accountable. Had anyone from the FA made even one of the homophobic, racist or sexist comments that Blatter's come out with he'd be forced to resign by the media and even the government, if necessary. The corruption also wouldn't be allowed to be swept under the carpet just because the people involved resigned.

FIFA are just living in their own bubble where they can do what they want. There's no doubt they need to go but FAs won't come out against them and even if they did it wouldn't be any too drastic target, like getting rid of them altogether.

Unfit but untouchable

 

[RobSpur]

You seem to be missing the point Rob. Qatar is not a 'Third World' country, it's the richest country in the world. It's not a problem of poverty, it's a problem of culture. In this country we've spent the last 200 years gradually embracing liberalism, slowly coming to a situation where manual labourers have the same basic legal rights as the established elite. In Qatar your rights are still dictated by the thickness of your wallet and the volume of your voice.

They're a country who have all the capability to treat their workforce as humans, but none of the desire to do so.

I would suggest that you've missed my point WY. I know who wealthy qatar is, but the people working there aren't from qatar, they are from the 3rd world. They go there because the pittance they can make there is more than they can make at home.

The workforce isn't working for the government as i've previously pointed out, it's working for building contractors who have won competitive tenders.

I am still yet to see anyone put forward a proposal as to what it is exactly that the qatar government should do to improve the position of foereign labourers working in qatar.

 

[Spurf]

England as a football nation took a long time to become involved in the World Cup we pulled out of FIFA in 1920 and didn't rejoin until 1946. Perhaps it's time to pull out again and at the same time send invitations to top football nations to join a tournament in the UK.

A world cup without England would carry on but some of it's gloss would be removed and other nations might well be ready to support such a move. Time for the home of football to protect the game it started.

 

[totsfan]

the reason fifa like England to be involved is because we have a big travelling support,so more money for them,and the sponser's

 

[Spurf]

I would suggest that you've missed my point WY. I know who wealthy qatar is, but the people working there aren't from qatar, they are from the 3rd world. They go there because the pittance they can make there is more than they can make at home.

The workforce isn't working for the government as i've previously pointed out, it's working for building contractors who have won competitive tenders.

I am still yet to see anyone put forward a proposal as to what it is exactly that the qatar government should do to improve the position of foereign labourers working in qatar.

It's very easy, you just bring in legislation on employment protection. You know the same as we have laws prohibiting murder.

 

[RobSpur]

It's very easy, you just bring in legislation on employment protection. You know the same as we have laws prohibiting murder.

what does that mean though ?

what specifically are the laws that you think the qatar government should introduce ?

 

[Wandering Yid]

I would suggest that you've missed my point WY. I know who wealthy qatar is, but the people working there aren't from qatar, they are from the 3rd world. They go there because the pittance they can make there is more than they can make at home.

The workforce isn't working for the government as i've previously pointed out, it's working for building contractors who have won competitive tenders.

I am still yet to see anyone put forward a proposal as to what it is exactly that the qatar government should do to improve the position of foereign labourers working in qatar.

Ok then.

Introduce a decent minimum wage.
Introduce a maximum working week.
Introduce better health and safety on building sites.
Introduce minimum living requirements for housing provided by employers. Eg. 1 bedroom and kitchen per 10 people, a square footage of living space per person.

This is all well within their remit. Employ an army of inspectors to enforce on a daily basis.

 

[RobSpur]

Ok then.

Introduce a decent minimum wage.
Introduce a maximum working week.
Introduce better health and safety on building sites.
Introduce minimum living requirements for housing provided by employers. Eg. 1 bedroom and kitchen per 10 people, a square footage of living space per person.

This is all well within their remit. Employ an army of inspectors to enforce on a daily basis.

Alright, not we're getting somewhere meaningful.

I agree with you the min wage. it would be very very difficult to enforce though, and it could only apply to future work years down the line.

If there's a max working week then the guys would be earning less. these guys have very little money; their life is work. if theyre not working they are just lieing in bed.

I don't think h+s is the issue. the only aspect of that is working in the sun, and nothing can be done about that. they already have laws about working in the middle of the day during summer.

the idea about accommodation isn't bad, but it's still going to be **** accommodation no matter what the density is. from looking at that video, it's not a case of them having no room to move, it's a case of everything being s***. how do you legislate against that ?

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

I agree with you the min wage. it would be very very difficult to enforce though, and it could only apply to future work years down the line.

If there's a max working week then the guys would be earning less. these guys have very little money; their life is work. if theyre not working they are just lieing in bed.

If they're being paid a decent living wage, then they'd have more to do than just lying in bed. Even that's preferable to being worked to death, anyway.
Why wouldn't the minimum wage be enforceable now? Screw the tossers who've been relying on slave labour. They can afford to lose a bit of cash.

You can easily enforce health and safety standards for their accommodation, too. It doesn't have to be ****.

 

[Wandering Yid]

I agree with you the min wage. it would be very very difficult to enforce though, and it could only apply to future work years down the line.

Why so difficult? We manage it over here.

If there's a max working week then the guys would be earning less. these guys have very little money; their life is work. if theyre not working they are just lieing in bed.

Sorry, this is possibly the most idiotic thing I've read on this site. That's why the minimum wage is so important, so that they don't have to work ridiculous hours to scape a few pennies together. Thereby they're not totally exhausted every day and have the energy to do things other than lying in bed.

I don't think h+s is the issue. the only aspect of that is working in the sun, and nothing can be done about that. they already have laws about working in the middle of the day during summer

Health and Safety isn't one of the issues brought up by the media, but it's always an issue with construction work.

the idea about accommodation isn't bad, but it's still going to be **** accommodation no matter what the density is. from looking at that video, it's not a case of them having no room to move, it's a case of everything being s***. how do you legislate against that ?

Are you just being contrary for the sake of it? I propose four very practical governmental solutions to the problem and you rubbish all of them, saying they're either unrealistic of infeasible, yet not explaining why you think so. There's plenty of evidence from other countries to suggest that they're realistic and feasible solutions.