I asked for the bickering to stop yesterday, this is the second time now. Quit it or create a banter thread so the rest of us don't have to read all the bull crap!
I think the thing you fail to appreciate is that achieving 4th every year is not progress..it's called stagnation. Liverpool have fallen a long way from their lofty heights but we,as Liverpool fans, can see progress being made in terms of performance and squad quality. In the second half of last season our form was top4. With the additions we have made this summer and hopefully more to come, we have a better chance of challenging than we have for the last 2 or 3 years. Arsenal on the other hand have not really improved. Losing RVP was a big blow and all things considered top4 was quite an acheivement. However, with wenger already getting his excuses in for not signing anyone,I don't see arsenal as progressing and feel that they are more likely to drop back. Now that's Not to say Liverpool will leapfrog them but I feel we have our best chance for some time to do so.
Since Wenger has been at Arsenal we have finished above Liverpool in the league for 14 of 17 seasons. One of the 3 seasons you beat us by a single point, lost more games than us but we drew a couple too many. We've also won more than Liverpool in that time and been second only to Utd in success since Wenger joined us. Iwouldn't underestimate the draw of playing for a top Manager. Granted we have had our trophyless period (coinciding with financing the best stadium in the country, one of the best in the world and the emergence of the super rich clubs), but in that time have maintained a top 4 place (something only Utd and Arsenal have done over the last 8 years), been in a handful of cup finals including the CL, along with lots of QF/SF appearances and almost won the league in 07/08. Excluding the last two years where we have started poorly and had to play catch-up we have always been in the title race up until a certain point in the season. Off the field as a club we have grown massively. Financialy we are the 4th most valuable club in the world and with our new sponsorship deals and successful growth of the business we have a huge turnover. Our global fanbase has grown to a point where we are in the Top5 in the world (115mil vs 70mil of liverpool). Our stadium debt is no longer an issue and we are finally in a position to compete on transfer fees and wages for the top players in the world. Demonstarted by us bidding £40mil+ for Suarez. We have shown we are now able and willing to spend on top quality and with Suarez and a couple of other signings we will be right back in the mix for the top competitions. Considering we finished 5 points off city who came 2nd last season i dont think we are as far away from the top teams as you would like to believe. Arsenal have shipped out lots of deadwood this transfer window aswell opening up alot of wages and spaces in the squad - i think the club are confident of adding a few players before the window closes. I really don't see how Liverpool think they are in a better position than us or think they have been better than us in the last 15-20 years. I'm not taking away from the success that Liverpool have had because the CL for example is a big prize and a fantastic achievement. You just haven't been on the same level as us for a while. If you where Suarez and you had two options (and realisticaly it is two options as there is no concrete interest from any other club, it's obvious Madrid want Bale and cannot afford another big money transfer ontop of that considering there huge outlay already this window): 1) Stay with Liverpool - finished 7th, 6th, 8th and 7th over the last 4 years - averaging 7th. No European football, but a long term project in place to try and build back to being in the top 4. The possibility of the odd League Cup or FA Cup at a push. 2) Go to Arsenal - finished 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 4th - averging 3.5th(lol). Champions League football and a project to get back to competing for/winning titles with everything in place, finances, stadium, experience, manager etc... With a better wage packet to top it off. I know which one i would choose. I know its hard when its your own player but looking at it from a neutral view you'd have to admit that Suarez would be taking a step up in his career to a currently bigger club playing on a higher stage. He is 26 and if he spent a few years performing for Arsenal he still has time for another big money move in his career to another top team.
I don't mean to be rude but this debate is meaningless. Showing your intent to rejoin the trophy winners? Offering 10 million less than the club holding the contract is not showing intent. It's waving at intent from the sidelines. I mean we could show our intent by offering Barca 60 million for Messi. It would be equally pointless and equally as empty a gesture. Suarez can "choose" you all day, it simply doesn't matter. We've made it clear we're not selling to rivals unless its for silly money. So I'll save you Arsenal fans all a lot of retyping: Arsenal are great, better than us blah blah. It just simply doesn't matter. Your "intent" needs to come in the form of 50M+ or it doesn't really exist. Show us the money. SHOW US THE MONEY
Look at it this way, if Suarez had of been at Arsenal for let's just say the past 5 years, he would have won nothing - so what do you have to convince him it will be any different in the next 5 years? I'm not looking for a we're better than you argument because atm you are better than us.
I hope you don't do a job where you have to negotiate pricing If we came in and gave you whatever you wanted straight away we would be idiots. It's a negotiation process, i'm sure an improved bid will be made (i doubt it will be £50mil) but it's not the end of the transfer window yet and both sides will be wanting to get the best deal possible.
@johnsonsbaby - You guys seem to be suggesting that adding players of Suarez quality to our team isnt going to improve us. If we had Suarez for the last 5 years who knows what he would of won - it would have been partly on his shoulders. The point is we now have a squad who are obviously a top 4 squadhaving consistently chaieved it and its by adding afew top quality players like Suarez that we will be able to get to the nextlevel - this is the idea that will be sold to him. Which is a far more attractive proposition than working towards trying to get a top 4 space with Liverpool (having averged 7th for the last 4 years). It's aclear step up regardless of how likely you think he will be to win trophies at Arsenal.
You had Van Persie who scored 30 league goals one season and you won **** all. Before that you had Adebayor who scored 24 league goals and you won **** all and before him you had Henry who scored 27 league goals in 05-06. Scoring goals hasn't been your problem, your failings have all been at the other end of the pitch, yet Wenger is neglecting them again and is trying to spend his whole summer & budget chasing after a guy that you don't particularly need and a guy that we don't want to sell. Madness, but its typical Wenger.
With our current squad numbers and clearout ongoing its obvious we will be strengthening other areas of the squad as well - we simply want a top striker and to make a statement that we can get a hold of big names. And i wasn't suggesting we have needed more goals or anything like that - i was simply saying you can't know what a player would have won if he was at another club over the past x years as you don't know what effect that player would have had on the team.
"You guys seem to be suggesting that adding players of Suarez quality to our team isnt going to improve us. If we had Suarez for the last 5 years who knows what he would of won - it would have been partly on his shoulders. The point is we now have a squad who are obviously a top 4 squadhaving consistently chaieved it and its by adding afew top quality players like Suarez that we will be able to get to the nextlevel - this is the idea that will be sold to him. Which is a far more attractive proposition than working towards trying to get a top 4 space with Liverpool (having averged 7th for the last 4 years). It's aclear step up regardless of how likely you think he will be to win trophies at Arsenal. " Bolded: 1. good point. Exactly how it's been with us, he's part of the team responsible for delivering highest possible finish. He hasn't delivered it to us [not on his own obviously] 2. It's only a step up if he sees it as a step up regardless of what Arsenal fans think re. your position and ours.
It is a step up. He'd be playing on a bigger stage i.e. the CL. To play in a team finishing consistently (14 of the last 17 years) above Liverpool in the league. Regardless of how likely people think it is that Arsenal will win a big trophy it is clearly a step up for him. Even if it isn't the giant step to Madrid that people think he should be taking - they aren't interested.
Suarez will [or should be] looking to join an already successful team, not another one he can 'improve' and maybe or maybe not win something, other than 6 or so CL games that's exactly where he is already with us!
Good god, how many times does need to be discussed??? It is a step up but not as big a step as he should be looking to make. Simple!
I think that is a fairly sensible comment tbh. The issue is - no other big teams are in for him. So its either take a step up with Arsenal - get to show off on the biggest stage (CL) and an outside chance of trophies. Or stay at a team averging 7th and not get to play in the CL. If he comes to us and lights the CL alive whos to say he wont get amove to Madrid in a couple of years? He is only 26 and its obviously a good career move for him at this time.
Thereby hangs the difference between the modern day football follower and a true fan. For you and your kind it's not about the club, the fans and the players. It's not about the heart and the loyalty. It is about the bank balance, the stadium and Forbes rankings. It's souless and passionless and is reflected in the atmosphere of the ground that you have built. Arsenal are truly a SMALL club when that is all that you have to hang on to. Our neighbours Everton have been and remain a far bigger club than Arsenal - they've no money to talk of, their ground is falling to bits (comparatively - sorry Tobes), they enter most seasons having already been written-off. Yet, they do their own thing, with so-called lesser players, with the full support and passion of their fans. This comparatively little club very nearly took your precious 4th spot off you last season! Can't you see that, in the end it's not just about riches? PSG and Monaco have far more resources at their disposal - yet they have no history. Ajax haven't won **** outside of Holland for decades but their shirts are more recognised around the world than PSG. So who is the bigger club? Who has the bigger fan base? Talk football around the world (and I have and in some very out of the way places). 2 UK sides are known around the world Liverpool and United. You don't hear people waxing lyrical about Arsenal. What Arsenal songs do you hear then sing unprompted? So these people have not bought a shirt and therefore don't count but they know about our club. We don't have to build the legend it already exists. There are a handful of clubs that are in this position and luckily LFC are one of them. That's worth far more than some Forbes listing or supposed sales analysis. Yes you do presently have a more modern ground with a greater capacity. This is a matter that is currently being addressed by our owners. The difference being, not just in the cost to the club but also to the fans. John Henry has already said that he is not prepared to extend the ground in such a way that costs raise the seat price beyond the reasonable return that can be expected. I applaud that stance. I also note the protest on the net, on the wireless and tv, in the written media of the costs associated with attending Arsenal matches - both seat prices and catering. Even at our present pricing levels - which are too high - you still need to put your grandchild's name down on the waiting list to get a season ticket. We can fill the ground to over 60,000 capacity with no problem at all! Now sure we have, by Liverpool's standards, had a poor decade and many things have gone wrong within the club. They have and are being addressed. I doubt that you'd find anybody on this board who would claim that the transformation is now complete but progress has clearly been made. On the pitch our performances have, at times been stellar, our consistency however has been lacking. The points and positions may not reflect it but the gap between ourselves and those who have finished above us is far smaller than people think. But yes THIS SEASON IS OUR SEASON. If you don't start out to achieve that then you shouldn't take part in competitive football. Until it is mathematically impossible to achieve you have to strive for the top. That is why our supporters rail against the attitude epitomised by Arsenal - 4th is good enough and look at our CL longevity. I haven't seen any Redman say other than Arsenal are a well run club and I'm not going to break the pattern. Wenger, has been an outstanding manager but appears to have lost his way in the last few seasons. The Invincibles were a great side and you have played some delightful football and developed some great players. However, what you presently put on the pitch is lacking by comparison. We and other fans are not deluded when we say we can beat you and overtake you - even with a Liverpool side that is far from the finished article. One of the things that is outside of your control but could (note I say could) is your clubs valuation. Your location has a major effect on the club's valuation. However London cannot continue with its present rate of land price inflation. Sooner or later a Tokyo style revaluation will take place and it will hurt considerably. Finally turning to Suarez. Think for one moment what we Redmen are actually saying. We are not saying no you can't have him because it will be the end for us - simply because we do not believe that is true. We are saying we don't want to sell to a rival but would do so at the right price that price is for LFC to established and presently look like some thing over £50 million. We know he's good and his style is unique but he is trouble. So we know we may not get the same level of excitement but we can probably find the goals and creativity we need without the hassle - he will get suspended/banned if he does join you. Don't be mad but we would sell him to madrid for £40 but expect you to pay a lot, lot more.
Pissoff! I've got about four debates going off at the minute, trying to keep track (especially as this and the Arsenal board are with the same person about the same player )
So you moan about our ticket prices without taking into consideration the London factor but take it into account when looking at our valutation? And to think there is going to be some kind of re-evaluation of property price in london is completely deluded! Your whole reply is basically 5 paragraphs of "BUT WE ARE THE MOST PASSIONATE FANSS AND WON STUFFS IN THE 80'S WHICH MEANS CHINESE PEOPLE KNOW WHO WE ARE!!" completing ignoring that in every single measurement that can have some kind of figure or basis for comparison - Arsenal trump Liverpool. You speaking to some dude abroad an him knowing Liverpool doesnt change the fact that Arsenal have almost 50% more worldwide fans. I know you lot love to throw out all these cliches about being the best fans etc but thats just an opinion and can't be quantified. All of the things i have put forward are measurable. Stadium - Arsenal Finances - Arsenal Value - Arsenal Competitions Entered - Arsenal Manager - Arsenal League Standings - Arsenal etc etc etc......
