The good auld US justice system.

[BBFs Unpopular View]

This gun **** just gets out of hand, just read this **** Guy opens fire on a car over load music, reason, he "felt" threatened though no one attacked him.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...o-shooting-teen-to-death-over-loud-music?lite

A Florida gun collector has pleaded not guilty to a murder charge alleging that he opened fire on a car full of unarmed teenagers, killing one, in an altercation that police say stemmed from loud music.

Michael David Dunn, 45, acted "as any responsible firearms owner would have," his lawyer said of the Friday evening incident at a gas station outside a convenience store in Jacksonville, Fla.

Dunn and his girlfriend were in Jacksonville for his son's wedding when they pulled up in their car next to the teens. Police allege that while the girlfriend was in the store, Dunn told Jordan Russell Davis, 17, and his three friends to turn down their music.

"It was loud," Jacksonville homicide Lt. Rob Schoonover said of the teens' music. "They admitted that. That's not a reason for someone to open fire."
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After an exchange of words, Dunn began shooting with a handgun, Schoonover said.

"Nobody else in that vehicle was struck; it was just our victim [Davis], which was lucky because the vehicle was shot eight or nine times," Schoonover said.

Davis was in the back seat and was struck twice, reported The Orlando Sentinel.

Dunn and his girlfriend drove off and spent the night at their hotel, according to Schoonover, but witnesses took down his license plate number. Police arrested him Saturday morning at his home in Satellite Beach, Fla., on one charge of murder and three charges of attempted murder. he drove off to a hotel after shooting a teenager dead!

"His side of the story is he felt threatened and that is the reason he took action," Schoonover said.

On Monday, Dunn — a gun collector who shot at local gun ranges, according to authorities — pleaded not guilty in Brevard County court, with his attorney describing his actions as self-defense.

Investigators Say Florida Man Involved in Shooting Death of Teen Was Upset Over ‘Loud Music’; Attorney: He ‘Acted Very Responsibly’
http://gawker.com/5963638/investiga...loud-music-attorney-he-acted-very-responsibly

Sweet ****ing jebus

Marissa Alexander actually fired a shot into her ceiling because her abusive ex husband would not leave her home and gets 20 years No "stand your ground" for her it seems.

 

[Red_Pheonix]

It was a bit of banter, that is clear from a read-through. The bullshit I refer to is your personal bullshit concerning Ireland England and that is what I refer to. I do not hold such grudges and see little difference between Ireland and England especially in current times.

A conversation to that effect will not go well, thats obvious to even the most thick person. The fact you even try compare a regicidal dictator to Collins is ****ing laughable.

I offered Collins to Donga's list of revolutionaries as a little poke, and he responded in kind and I jokingly made my reply cos we've no love for Ollie in a general context, I couldn't give a monkeys about either Michael or Ollie and you fueled with your misguided tribalism took up the mantle of defender of all things English

I was talking to Donga, he was talking to me, and you jumped in with your own personal bullshit, keep it to yourself

I retract any direct\personal insult Red, not needed I stand by the rest

Firstly this is an open forum and therefore posts are responded to by all. If you want a private conversation with Donga then there are ways of doing so which you well know. So if you post stuff that I don't agree with then I reserve the right, without adding insults, to respond with what are my own views. Now you may or may not agree that is your prerogative, but don't refer to it as bullshit when you can't produce evidence to support the contention!

I will accept that it is probably silly to compare Cromwell with Collins as Cromwell is a major figure in world democratic history whereas Collins is little more than a footnote.

 

[BBFs Unpopular View]

Trayvon Martin could have been me’: US President Obama addresses Zimmerman verdict

Trayvon could have been me”. US President Barack Obama has made one of the most extensive speeches on race since he was elected as the country’s first black president in 2008.

Addressing the controversial verdict in the Trayvon Martin murder trial, where George Zimmerman was acquitted on all charges of killing the unarmed black teenager, Obama opened up on the African-American perspective on a very personal tone:

“There are very few African-American men in this country who haven’t had the experience of being followed when they were shopping in a department store. That includes me. And there are very few African-American men who haven’t had the experience of walking across the street and hearing the locks click on the doors of cars. That happened to me, at least before I was a senator. There are very few African-Americans who haven’t had the experience of getting on an elevator and a woman clutching her purse nervously and holding her breath until she had a chance to get off.”

Obama also called for Florida’s ‘stand your ground’ self-defence laws, largely cited as the reason Zimmermann was acquitted, to be examined.

In the wake of Zimmerman’s ‘not guilty’ verdict, protests and marches spread across the country, sparking a national debate on racial profiling and civil rights.

At his surprise White House briefing, Obama has taken the issue to the highest level.

http://www.euronews.com/2013/07/20/...-president-obama-addresses-zimmerman-verdict/

Even the US president appears to think there are racial aspects to this case

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Trayvon Martin could have been me’: US President Obama addresses Zimmerman verdict

Trayvon could have been me”. US President Barack Obama has made one of the most extensive speeches on race since he was elected as the country’s first black president in 2008.

Addressing the controversial verdict in the Trayvon Martin murder trial, where George Zimmerman was acquitted on all charges of killing the unarmed black teenager, Obama opened up on the African-American perspective on a very personal tone:

“There are very few African-American men in this country who haven’t had the experience of being followed when they were shopping in a department store. That includes me. And there are very few African-American men who haven’t had the experience of walking across the street and hearing the locks click on the doors of cars. That happened to me, at least before I was a senator. There are very few African-Americans who haven’t had the experience of getting on an elevator and a woman clutching her purse nervously and holding her breath until she had a chance to get off.”

Obama also called for Florida’s ‘stand your ground’ self-defence laws, largely cited as the reason Zimmermann was acquitted, to be examined.

In the wake of Zimmerman’s ‘not guilty’ verdict, protests and marches spread across the country, sparking a national debate on racial profiling and civil rights.

At his surprise White House briefing, Obama has taken the issue to the highest level.

http://www.euronews.com/2013/07/20/...-president-obama-addresses-zimmerman-verdict/

Even the US president appears to think there are racial aspects to this case

This has been my point all along, in that if the reasoning behind the 'stand' laws is to increase overall confidence and safety and security, then the effect could well be the opposite if young black men (and teenagers/youths in general) decide to arm themselves in defence against gun-totting adults who believe (and seem to have their understandings confirmed by the courts) that they have the right/duty to confront, then 'execute,' individuals who they deem anti-social. As to your continued comparison with the black lady who got twenty years, I still think the analogy is fatuous: if she'd shot her husband between the eyes because she felt 'threatened' she'd have probably got away with it as she would have been deemed to be acting in fear, whereas shooting into the ceiling signifies some control and reason to the act. not racist per se, but the bloody sentencing seems grossly disproportionate and vindictive. Does she have some firearms/violence form?

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

This gun **** just gets out of hand, just read this **** Guy opens fire on a car over load music, reason, he "felt" threatened though no one attacked him.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...o-shooting-teen-to-death-over-loud-music?lite

A Florida gun collector has pleaded not guilty to a murder charge alleging that he opened fire on a car full of unarmed teenagers, killing one, in an altercation that police say stemmed from loud music.

Michael David Dunn, 45, acted "as any responsible firearms owner would have," his lawyer said of the Friday evening incident at a gas station outside a convenience store in Jacksonville, Fla.

Dunn and his girlfriend were in Jacksonville for his son's wedding when they pulled up in their car next to the teens. Police allege that while the girlfriend was in the store, Dunn told Jordan Russell Davis, 17, and his three friends to turn down their music.

"It was loud," Jacksonville homicide Lt. Rob Schoonover said of the teens' music. "They admitted that. That's not a reason for someone to open fire."
Advertise | AdChoices

After an exchange of words, Dunn began shooting with a handgun, Schoonover said.

"Nobody else in that vehicle was struck; it was just our victim [Davis], which was lucky because the vehicle was shot eight or nine times," Schoonover said.

Davis was in the back seat and was struck twice, reported The Orlando Sentinel.

Dunn and his girlfriend drove off and spent the night at their hotel, according to Schoonover, but witnesses took down his license plate number. Police arrested him Saturday morning at his home in Satellite Beach, Fla., on one charge of murder and three charges of attempted murder. he drove off to a hotel after shooting a teenager dead!

"His side of the story is he felt threatened and that is the reason he took action," Schoonover said.

On Monday, Dunn — a gun collector who shot at local gun ranges, according to authorities — pleaded not guilty in Brevard County court, with his attorney describing his actions as self-defense.

Investigators Say Florida Man Involved in Shooting Death of Teen Was Upset Over ‘Loud Music’; Attorney: He ‘Acted Very Responsibly’
http://gawker.com/5963638/investiga...loud-music-attorney-he-acted-very-responsibly

Sweet ****ing jebus

Marissa Alexander actually fired a shot into her ceiling because her abusive ex husband would not leave her home and gets 20 years No "stand your ground" for her it seems.

We'll see where this goes, legally and sentencing, as such. But I think it confirms that premature, unreasonable gun-use is a cultural thing against a racial background, as opposed to racism being the prime driver of this behaviour.

 

[BBFs Unpopular View]

We'll see where this goes, legally and sentencing, as such. But I think it confirms that premature, unreasonable gun-use is a cultural thing against a racial background, as opposed to racism being the prime driver of this behaviour.

Of course, it is a scary coincidence that these teenagers getting shot are black and the shooters are white. For me Dunn wouldn't open up on a car full of white kids though Zimmerman probably would have still called in the 911 call either way, I think he would have been arrested on the spot though if the kid was white and would have got at least manslaughter.

Dunn, if he gets off for shooting the kid in the car at the gas station there'll possibly be another riot.

Obama also said

African Americans were also keenly aware of racial disparities in the application of criminal laws.

"That all contributes to a sense that if a white male teen was involved in the same kind of scenario, both the outcome and the aftermath might have been different," Mr Obama said.

The first bit in bold I think applies to the lady who got 20 years for defending herself and she was black, she injured no one but her ceiling, her abusive ex husband is a big brute too, and Zimmerman and the other two guys kill a black teenager in each case and get not guilty.

The second is how I feel about it

Florida has got serious ****ing racial issues when it comes to justice imo.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Of course, it is a scary coincidence that these teenagers getting shot are black and the shooters are white. For me Dunn wouldn't open up on a car full of white kids though Zimmerman probably would have still called in the 911 call either way, I think he would have been arrested on the spot though if the kid was white and would have got at least manslaughter.

Dunn, if he gets off for shooting the kid in the car at the gas station there'll possibly be another riot.

Obama also said


The first bit in bold I think applies to the lady who got 20 years for defending herself and she was black, she injured no one but her ceiling, her abusive ex husband is a big brute too, and Zimmerman and the other two guys kill a black teenager in each case and get not guilty.

The second is how I feel about it

Florida has got serious ****ing racial issues when it comes to justice imo.

Yes, there's undeniably racism afoot in this. BUT, my point is that it's a bad, bad law that not only enables but encourages people to settle human transactions with guns. Can you imagine football matches in this country if people had guns and we had this law? Liverpool - Man Utd games would end up like Dodge City.

 

[BBFs Unpopular View]

Yes, there's undeniably racism afoot in this. BUT, my point is that it's a bad, bad law that not only enables but encourages people to settle human transactions with guns. Can you imagine football matches in this country if people had guns and we had this law? Liverpool - Man Utd games would end up like Dodge City.

I do agree with you definitely Those flash anger moments would leave thousands dead if guns were suddenly introduced en masse into our society.

The law and the fact that the constitution is intentionally misinterpreted to allow the sale of guns to every tom dick n harry.

For me though racial profiling is institutional racism. Nothing less. The 911 operator clearly asks Zimmerman is the person black or Hispanic, total predisposition to race in the context of devious behaviour. Throw in poor education standards and a good helping of total ignorance and you are left with what has happened.

What I say ignorance I mean "not knowing something and refusing to consider the reality and ignoring it because it is different from what you believe".

In Florida, the stand your ground law was manly introduced to allow gun owners to shoot people instead of retreat from a situation, now there are instances where you are left with no choice, I think someone breaking into your home is where the law is useful as I don't think someone should have to retreat when in their own home but due to the racial issues in Florida the law has been abused and distorted by the justice system and police and taken advantage of by some lunatics like Dunn.

For me, it beggars belief that Zimmerman was not arrested at the scene after killing someone, even if to be released afterwards.

The other guy Dunn who opened up on the car at the gas station, he drove away and went to a hotel to continue his trip, and his lawyers say he acted very responsibly

There is pretty much 0 gun control in the US. The danger presented by the weapons fuels the sales of more, the crime they are used in fuels the sale of more and more, it's perpetual and every time Obama opens his gob about controls sales go through the roof.

Throw in poor local economy, poor education standards and the already existing racism and I am surprised there is not more being shot dead tbh

 

[BBFs Unpopular View]

What's also really freaky I read yesterday, the Norwegian woman done for extramarital sex because she was raped and gets 18 months in prison. Is there no actual crime of rape against women in Dubai?

****ed up though Dubai has many ridiculous and racist laws, the treatment of immigrant workers is sick, the companies they come to work for almost own them!

 

[Tobes]

What's also really freaky I read yesterday, the Norwegian woman done for extramarital sex because she was raped and gets 18 months in prison. Is there no actual crime of rape against women in Dubai?

****ed up though Dubai has many ridiculous and racist laws, the treatment of immigrant workers is sick, the companies they come to work for almost own them!

That's sharia law for you, people who go to work in Dubai go there for the tax free massive wedge, they also go there with the knowledge of how society works over there, if you can't stomach it, don't ****ing go. I've no sympathy whatsoever for workers who bleat about their experience when their driver for being there was greed.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

That's sharia law for you, people who go to work in Dubai go there for the tax free massive wedge, they also go there with the knowledge of how society works over there, if you can't stomach it, don't ****ing go. I've no sympathy whatsoever for workers who bleat about their experience when their driver for being there was greed.

Would you extend that to that poor middle-aged teacher a few years back who was convicted to be flogged for calling a teddy-bear Mohammed? She was a nursery school teacher, and I don't think her motivation was greed. But if your overall point is 'respect the cultures of countries than you are in", you're totally right. My only comment re America though is that the cultural hegemony it extends across the globe, especially in the English-speaking world, permits us to comment, if not influence.

But do you know, we have a young American girl (17) from 'Frisco here with us this next two weeks on an exchange visit with my daughter. we went for a meal last night and she knows NOTHING about the Martin case, educated and bright though she is. Knows nothing about the Indian wars or Custer either - but knows about Cromwell and our Civil War (make of that what you will). Point is, she reckons her family don't own a gun, and she doesn't know if any of her neighbours do. Don't know if any of our US posters can say that this is usual or normal.

 

[BBFs Unpopular View]

That's sharia law for you, people who go to work in Dubai go there for the tax free massive wedge, they also go there with the knowledge of how society works over there, if you can't stomach it, don't ****ing go. I've no sympathy whatsoever for workers who bleat about their experience when their driver for being there was greed.

Really,? dont agree.

Many have their passports taken from them and it ain't all a bed of roses as you seem to think it is for many who are not working the high end jobs, especially construction jobs and other low end employment.


"if you dont like it dont ****ing go" Nicely put from a person who is not actually living in poverty and squalor with starvimg kids you gotta go work abroad as a slave to feed It ain't as if these facts were advertised and they knew they'd be pretty much slaves in some respects

The bit in bold, so there is no actual crime of rape against a woman in Dubai? You get raped and then go to prison for reporting it. Lovely!!

 

[Red Baron]

Would you extend that to that poor middle-aged teacher a few years back who was convicted to be flogged for calling a teddy-bear Mohammed? She was a nursery school teacher, and I don't think her motivation was greed. But if your overall point is 'respect the cultures of countries than you are in", you're totally right. My only comment re America though is that the cultural hegemony it extends across the globe, especially in the English-speaking world, permits us to comment, if not influence.

But do you know, we have a young American girl (17) from 'Frisco here with us this next two weeks on an exchange visit with my daughter. we went for a meal last night and she knows NOTHING about the Martin case, educated and bright though she is. Knows nothing about the Indian wars or Custer either - but knows about Cromwell and our Civil War (make of that what you will). Point is, she reckons her family don't own a gun, and she doesn't know if any of her neighbours do. Don't know if any of our US posters can say that this is usual or normal.

Surprised she doesn't know about the case or about the wars, tbh. Everyone in Texas and their mother has an opinion about it. I will say that just because someone is educated does not mean they are up-to-date on current events.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Surprised she doesn't know about the case or about the wars, tbh. Everyone in Texas and their mother has an opinion about it. I will say that just because someone is educated does not mean they are up-to-date on current events.

She's from San Fransisco. (My bad!) .I'm interested what you make of comments re (non) gun-ownership

 

[Red Baron]

She's from San Fransisco. (My bad!) .I'm interested what you make of comments re (non) gun-ownership

My point was more to the fact that even in Texas everyone has an opinion about it, and I talk to my friends that are military brats, aka spread out across the country and world, and they know about the case too.

Per gun-ownership, I think we should be able to carry a gun. More deaths by guns are cases of self-defense than murder, and there have been multiple mass-shootings stopped by innocent people with concealed guns. However, you don't hear about this, mainly because a lot of the media wants to focus on the bad that happens with guns rather than the good.

 

[Tobes]

Per gun-ownership, I think we should be able to carry a gun. More deaths by guns are cases of self-defense than murder, and there have been multiple mass-shootings stopped by innocent people with concealed guns. However, you don't hear about this, mainly because a lot of the media wants to focus on the bad that happens with guns rather than the good.

That's the craziest reason for justifying America's gun laws that I've ever heard.

So the fact that someone has foiled an attempted mass shooting by pulling their own weapon first, somehow means that guns are a force for good? lol, there's a clear correlation between death by shooting & guns.......no guns, no shootings.

 

[Super G Ted'inho]

Bit surprised that this thread is still going, it looked like it had run its course a couple of times already...

 

[Tobes]

Really,? dont agree.

Many have their passports taken from them and it ain't all a bed of roses as you seem to think it is for many who are not working the high end jobs, especially construction jobs and other low end employment.


"if you dont like it dont ****ing go" Nicely put from a person who is not actually living in poverty and squalor with starvimg kids you gotta go work abroad as a slave to feed It ain't as if these facts were advertised and they knew they'd be pretty much slaves in some respects

The bit in bold, so there is no actual crime of rape against a woman in Dubai? You get raped and then go to prison for reporting it. Lovely!!

I obviously wasn't referring to the lower end migrant construction workers you donk, as they're not paid massive amounts of tax free wedge are they?

My point was that behind the marble & glass, is a hardline muslim country that lives by sharia law. Many people choose to ignore this fact & then act surprised when horror stories like the ones mentioned here come out. It's the way it is in these sharia lead states, despicable - yes, inhumane - yes, inconceivable to us Westerners - yes, but it's the way they live. If you don't want to be a part of it - don't ****ing go.

 

[LuisDiazgamechanger]

Norwegian woman
The person responsible for raping her must have connection in high places, prosecuting him would undermine their Sharia Law.
The man cannot be brought to justice in short, and the easier thing is to blame the woman to safe the face of the accused.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

My point was more to the fact that even in Texas everyone has an opinion about it, and I talk to my friends that are military brats, aka spread out across the country and world, and they know about the case too.

Per gun-ownership, I think we should be able to carry a gun. More deaths by guns are cases of self-defense than murder, and there have been multiple mass-shootings stopped by innocent people with concealed guns. However, you don't hear about this, mainly because a lot of the media wants to focus on the bad that happens with guns rather than the good.

Sorry Red, I'm not making this clear at all. Her comments re her family (and neighbours) not owning guns. I sort of assumed (ignorantly?) that all US households had a gun, or at least it was the normality for most people to own guns. She sort of threw me with that observation, so I was wondering whether it was normal. Re the communication with tobes, I have to agree with what he said in that if there was a fear the 'baddies' were carrying knives, should everyone defend themselves with bigger knives or swords? Look, it's your country and we've already mentioned that Canada has gun ownership, but nothing like the US shooting rate (I believe guns are legal in Australia too?), but surely you can see that the ides of everyone feeling "safer" because they own a gun is contrary to the reality that, in your culture, mass gun-ownership = mass gun usage?