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mrbeard said:
is every grand prix not a test though? from practice one to the chequered flag? are the teams not sharing their data with pirelli?
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I guess Pirelli are only getting more information on the 4 tyre compounds they already have. For any experimental tyres or for future ideas, they need another way to test. Why they couldn't chuck an experimental set at each driver to use at the start of FP1 when nobody's on the track anyway, I don't know.
 
DHCanary said:
"Pirelli excluded from F1 championship" <laugh>
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Thats the sort of thing they'd probably do to themselves. As a sport F1 isn't half good at shooting itself in the foot.


mrbeard said:
is every grand prix not a test though? from practice one to the chequered flag? are the teams not sharing their data with pirelli?
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I'd assume so, you often see Pirelli officials poking tyres with sensors after they've been used and generally collecting data. I think Pirelli just wanted a steady baseline to try several ideas.
p.s. Welcome to the forum <ok>
 
First post. The plea for joining was just too strong to turn down!

Hi to all. :cool:.

Well I think we'd done well to the sixth event of the season without a major political controversy! Coupled with it taking 6 races for a safety car, waiting so long for both events has surpassed all reasonable expectations.

Anyway; I think this comes down to a balls up rather than anything sinister. There just wasn't adequate due diligence. There is too much at stake unless Merc really don't care about this season and everything so far has been an over achievement.

My reading of this is:

- The paddock knows about previous tests. It's too incestuous to not have known at some level.
- This effectively "green lights" any future tests and de-risks participation.
- The request by Pirelli to the FIA was probably just viewed as a formality. A box ticking exercise to ensure the nod was given from the FIA.
- Someone in either Pirelli, Mercedes or both asked the question "are we good to go?". Someone else answered "yeah. Got the letter from the FIA. We're free to go".
- The faith placed in the answer was misplaced in so leading to a total failure to recognise the crucial stipulation of engaging all other Constructors.
- By this point Mercedes are engaged in a testing programme on a compound they are not given specifications on but with instructions to use the tyre in a particular way. Mercedes are informed by Pirelli if questioned why no other team is participating:-


- All other teams have other commitments at this point but will be engaged from a wider perspective later in the year
- We've already obtained some results from another team


- If you are at a track which is accepted as the baseline location for testing and you can offer up your best drivers to support Pirelli (and ultimately the sport - despite separate brands, it is a single travelling marketing machine as well) the test at this time makes perfect sense. Sure, Mercedes will not pass up the opportunity because they, like all teams want more running and will bend the rules to get this, but they have already convinced themselves they can do this safely as per the earlier (wrongful) understanding their participation was sound.

To try anything under the radar is just utterly stupid. The fact a request exists suggests this wasn't an under the radar attempt, just left to people who have a poor grasp of detail and risk assessment!

Cheers,
Brian
 
Oh yes, as an additional thought. (Remembered as I was at the circuit for the race weekend).

at that event all teams were given a test compound to run. These were not colour coded with the usual markings. I am inclinded to think the Mercedes testing we've been talking about is the same compound they used in FP2.
 
mrbeard said:
thanks, i read the whole post and couldn't contain myself not to contribute, a great read :)
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Thats what we like to hear :D

BCS said:
First post. The plea for joining was just too strong to turn down!

Hi to all. :cool:.

Well I think we'd done well to the sixth event of the season without a major political controversy! Coupled with it taking 6 races for a safety car, waiting so long for both events has surpassed all reasonable expectations.

Anyway; I think this comes down to a balls up rather than anything sinister. There just wasn't adequate due diligence. There is too much at stake unless Merc really don't care about this season and everything so far has been an over achievement.

My reading of this is:

- The paddock knows about previous tests. It's too incestuous to not have known at some level.
- This effectively "green lights" any future tests and de-risks participation.
- The request by Pirelli to the FIA was probably just viewed as a formality. A box ticking exercise to ensure the nod was given from the FIA.
- Someone in either Pirelli, Mercedes or both asked the question "are we good to go?". Someone else answered "yeah. Got the letter from the FIA. We're free to go".
- The faith placed in the answer was misplaced in so leading to a total failure to recognise the crucial stipulation of engaging all other Constructors.
- By this point Mercedes are engaged in a testing programme on a compound they are not given specifications on but with instructions to use the tyre in a particular way. Mercedes are informed by Pirelli if questioned why no other team is participating:-


- All other teams have other commitments at this point but will be engaged from a wider perspective later in the year
- We've already obtained some results from another team


- If you are at a track which is accepted as the baseline location for testing and you can offer up your best drivers to support Pirelli (and ultimately the sport - despite separate brands, it is a single travelling marketing machine as well) the test at this time makes perfect sense. Sure, Mercedes will not pass up the opportunity because they, like all teams want more running and will bend the rules to get this, but they have already convinced themselves they can do this safely as per the earlier (wrongful) understanding their participation was sound.

To try anything under the radar is just utterly stupid. The fact a request exists suggests this wasn't an under the radar attempt, just left to people who have a poor grasp of detail and risk assessment!

Cheers,
Brian
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Welcome to the forum, and nice post to open with <ok>

The whole fiasco seems to be loaded to the brim with suspect rules and a FIA which may or may not have green lighted something in error. I fully believe that Mercedes shouldn't have been given this opportunity as its unfair on the others, but Mercedes would have been fools to turn a opportunity like this down.
 
BCS said:
Oh yes, as an additional thought. (Remembered as I was at the circuit for the race weekend).

at that event all teams were given a test compound to run. These were not colour coded with the usual markings. I am inclinded to think the Mercedes testing we've been talking about is the same compound they used in FP2.
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The tyres tested in FP2 were 2014 spec i believe, whereas the allegation here is that the tyres Mercedes tested were this year's spec, specifically for Canada, as the unique surface of that track does cause tyre problems.
 
I'm Batman said:
The tyres tested in FP2 were 2014 spec i believe, whereas the allegation here is that the tyres Mercedes tested were this year's spec, specifically for Canada, as the unique surface of that track does cause tyre problems.
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That would mean that Pirelli were thinking of changing the tyres before the high deg Spain race? We only really heard about Pirelli thinking of changing the tyres mid season in the days after Spain. Time for me to go back and look at the past F1 stories with a more paranoid view ;)
 
BrightLampShade said:
Thats what we like to hear :D



Welcome to the forum, and nice post to open with <ok>

The whole fiasco seems to be loaded to the brim with suspect rules and a FIA which may or may not have green lighted something in error. I fully believe that Mercedes shouldn't have been given this opportunity as its unfair on the others, but Mercedes would have been fools to turn a opportunity like this down.
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Thank you.

Yes, it certainly seems like a case of all possible eventualities. This certainly has the capability to be something big but for now I'm reserving a damning judgement on this one. Sometimes the F1 world does get a little too excited and makes a controversy over something small / none existent.

The thing which I picked up today (and I may be wrong here as unusually missed most of the pre race build up) was that the protests didn't appear to be raised which too much anger but in a stern manner for clarifications purposes rather than an outright accusation or cry of foul play.
 
DHCanary said:
Being F1, probably both. I think Pirelli screwed up and Mercedes took advantage, knowing they could shift the bulk of the blame to Pirelli.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head there DH. I'm damn sure Mercedes have read and reread ALL the rules, and gone all over them with a fine-toothed comb looking for any type of loophole, so they knew what they were doing was, according to the rules, totally illegal, but knowing they can pass the blame squarely onto the shoulders of F1's current scapegoat, Pirelli, they cynically went ahead with the test. for the sack of F1 I hope their results are all wiped from the record books.

As to Mercedes not knowing what tyre cmpounds they were testing I'd say after 5 laps they knew exactly what type of compound they were using.


P.S. big welcome to all the new members who have joined
 
BCS said:
First post. The plea for joining was just too strong to turn down!

Hi to all. :cool:.
&#8230;(edited quote)
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What a superb first post. It looks as if you know your onions, BCS.

I should begin with your mentioning of paddock gossip. Well, if there has been any on this, I've heard none of it*. Perhaps I should also add that gossip often just doesn't come out because everyone is playing cards&#8230; (if you get my drift). It usually only manifests when the cat is out of the bag and even then it consists mostly of conjecture until it takes shape, just like a forum! (But not so much this one, of course!)
;)

However, I feel instinctively that you are on the right track and would draw your attention to the opening paragraph of my previous post earlier in this thread:

cosicave said:
Big P.R. mistake.

Some very bad handling of Pirelli's request for this (and Ferrari's partially hidden?) test, together with no clear ultimatum imposed upon Pirelli for the FIA to be informed of any development in a decision to conduct one. Clearly, a vague acknowledgement was insufficient, and may appear to provide ground for defence of Pirelli's decision to go ahead without further consultation. The way I see it, this hints at some breakdown in communication &#8211; or at least that this idea may be raised by one or more parties to defend their position(s). As a consequence, this may easily be perceived as a lack of transparency (deliberate or otherwise); and I believe it is this which provides reasonable ground for Red Bull's objection. And yes, if I was pulling Little Jack Horner's strings, I'd have him say it too.

&#8230;(edited for brevity)&#8230;

The bottom line is that we should not be guessing&#8230;
​
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P.S. Welcome to the forum, Brian. There is quite a bit of knowledge here, lots of generally good-natured humour, and at least a smattering of common sense; so please help me stay up to date with your insights and gut feelings. I'm sure everyone will benefit.

*I'll be the first to add that it could be a symptom of age. Equally, it could be a previously foolish disregard for ear-plugs&#8230;
 
Good post, Miggins. That seems at least a possibility. Certainly, my guts aren't vomiting disagreement &#8211; yet.

As others have suggested, it's probably a combination of factors; but at the moment, your hypothesis seems as likely as any, to me.
 
BrightLampShade said:
That would mean that Pirelli were thinking of changing the tyres before the high deg Spain race? We only really heard about Pirelli thinking of changing the tyres mid season in the days after Spain. Time for me to go back and look at the past F1 stories with a more paranoid view ;)
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Immediately after the race Hembery said with some certainty that they'd be changing the tyres for Silverstone. He wouldn't make that decision himself in the immediate aftermath of a race so it would've been discussed by Pirelli in the build up to that race.
 
Personally I can understand why pirelli wantedto use a current car and especially one known for using rear tryes hard, because its a case of if the new trye can survive the merc hard use then it will work for everyone, and to be fair what we all want to avoid is one of those ****ers delaminating(sp) while some poor ****er is doign 200MPH down a straight , remember mansell in australia? if it weren't for his skill that could have gone real badly.

plus we want the cars to race, all this driving like your on the m25 from the start of the race is boring!
 
Who is in the wrong?

Mercedes?
They like any other team would snap at the chance and were told by pirelli and the FIA that everything is legal. Yet they have definitly got an advantage of mileage put on the 2013 car.

Pirelli?
They should not have kept this hush hush and exclusive to Mercedes. If there was a major problem then they should of made an agreement with th FIA to have a general test day for all teams or maybe buy an HRT. It's a bit stupid they dont have a test car for this year. They could even test with a new team that were rumoured to join for 2014.

FIA?
Major foul up. They allow them to break the rules then they investigate them for breaking the rules. The FIA need to take a huge look at themselves. I personally think the blame lies with them
 
fevriul said:
Personally I can understand why pirelli wantedto use a current car and especially one known for using rear tryes hard, because its a case of if the new trye can survive the merc hard use then it will work for everyone, and to be fair what we all want to avoid is one of those ****ers delaminating(sp) while some poor ****er is doign 200MPH down a straight , remember mansell in australia? if it weren't for his skill that could have gone real badly.

plus we want the cars to race, all this driving like your on the m25 from the start of the race is boring!
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That's it exactly, IMO, and Pirelli said as much. The question now is whether the FIA ok'ed it or not. It seems that they want to pretend not but I find it hard to believe that this test went off in secret without at least nominal consent.


Bando: Yes, I agree that the blame must lie with the FIA; but when do they ever tale the responsibility?


Edit: Welcome to those new members who heard the siren call.
 
DHCanary said:
Okay, that is shocking. You can't give one team 1000 km of testing two weeks before you implement the tyres, that's ridiculous. Interesting he said current drivers, seeing as we know Hamilton was elsewhere (and sources elsewhere on the net check out on that), that might suggest there's an element of fiction he's woven into that. We can't be the only people to have noticed Hamilton was in the USA.
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In Horner's interview before the race he said "a current car, with current tyres and a current driver" singular. So it could be Rosberg.

On the opinion that Pirelli need to test on this year's car, that's only really relevant if they're testing this year's tyres. If they're doing 2014 work the car is going to be inaccurate whether it's from 2010 or 2013 because of the regulation overhaul, so why not just use a 2010 car and not break the testing ban.

If they're testing this year's tyres they should've involved all teams rather than building them around Mercedes. I don't see why they need to test the tyres anyway, they could've (they can't now because the FIA have blocked it) just gone back to last year's tried and tested construction with the kevlar belt. Something they can still do on safety grounds.
 
Still a popular thread with the guests I see... *cough* 60s to sign up *cough* no adds *cough* no pre-mod *cough* no time limit between posts *cough*

Sorry bout that, must be coming down with something. To the point in hand!
I've done a a lot of reading this morning and the more I look into this the more I feel no one really knows what happened at this test. Horner keeps going on about current drivers when Hamilton was the other side of the world (so I assume Horner is guessing).
"It is remarkable that nobody knew that a current car with current drivers was running around the Barcelona track," he said. "It didn't come out until Friday."
Also quite a lot of the F1 journalists have started becoming pretty vague which is understandable given that the story has basically stagnated.

I've also noticed Red Bull have changed their tune a little to try and shift the blame squarely onto Mercedes and say Pirelli aren't at fault as its a breach in sporting regs and therefore down to the team. He may have a point but given the unknown about the FIA approval which may save Mercedes bacon, who gets the blame then?
 
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