S
Spurs Controlling or Creative.
- Thread starter Spurf
- Start date
-
Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
-
Couple things I'd want to say here. Whilst Holtby is very new and we can't be sure how good he'll be, the comparison to Rafa is unfair. We are in danger of exaggerating Rafa's influence. Very good player, but Harrys formation often didn't suit him. He was also very injury prone and rarely went beyond 70 minutes in a game. He was also increasingly drifting out of games. Don't get me wrong, would have him back, but he wasn't as good as some paint him.
Secondly, when we talk about creativity, nobody includes Bale and Lennon in this. It isn't only Lewis that we rely on to create things, our wingers (esp Bale) can make things happen out of nothing and we should include them in our lists of creative players.
Secondly, when we talk about creativity, nobody includes Bale and Lennon in this. It isn't only Lewis that we rely on to create things, our wingers (esp Bale) can make things happen out of nothing and we should include them in our lists of creative players.
I agree with your second point SD RE Bale and Lennon being creative, I don't think many list them as due to their positions, they're expected to create chances from out wide with crosses and cutting inside.
When there's talk about creativity, I think most mean from the middle of the park, like what Luka and Rafa produced - through balls, chips over the defence, knocking it out wide for the wingers to get a cross in etc.
Though I do disagree with the first point in regards to Rafa not fitting in Harry's formation. For me, Rafa instantly became one of the leagues best players in the style Harry operated, he had that free role behind the striker and I think he thrived on it, he came as a back up player at Madrid to becoming a player that we revolved a lot of our play around and he loved it. His goals were so important to us, many a time he got the winning goal and his link up play with a striker was brilliant (mainly a tall one, Crouch/ Ade). If anything, I think he was under appreciated at Spurs by some fans, now he's gone, I think many have realised just what a fantastic player he was for us.
You may be right, I've probably oversold the downside - I loved having him with us. Having Rafa and Luka (at first) seemed to produce a conflict, as they both seemed fit to play the same position. Eventually it was sorted, with Luka further back. That was until Harry put him out wide occasionally
. But your point is a good one, plenty of goals and a spark to our play that was needed.
VDV didn't 'fit' the system in many ways but it was this random ability to create out of nothing that was so valuable. The role that Bale has filled in our last couple of games was a role that VDV occupied. Bear in mind also that Harry was not an advocate of minute instructions to individual he preferred to let players 'express themselves' so in fact we are not talking systems in this case anyway.
You may be right, I've probably oversold the downside - I loved having him with us. Having Rafa and Luka (at first) seemed to produce a conflict, as they both seemed fit to play the same position. Eventually it was sorted, with Luka further back. That was until Harry put him out wide occasionally
Ahh it really wound me up when either Luka or Rafa were put out wide. Neither were really effective from wide positions yet Harry persisted with it a good few times. For me, a wide man needs to have blistering pace, especially the way we set up. That's why I think Lennon and Bale are so effective for us, their pace and skill frightens full backs. They're our version of Bayern's Ribery and Robben - who are so deadly when on form.
Last season when we dominated games, even with Modric & VDV we was weak at breaking teams down, unless we hit on the counter, so to see us attempt to break teams down with Dempsey & Dembele (no offence to dembele) wasn't striking me with much confidence, as they are inferior passers, and also offer a downgrade in terms of creativity.
In fact, even a world class Barca struggle to break teams down at times, its hard to control a game, have a team pinned back and open them up, so its no wonder we're having more possession but finding it tough to break through.
However because we now play a different system, we can't compare if VDV & Modric would have been better this year (then last year) as we haven't had the opportunity to see them perform in a more controlling system, yet fans have been moaning about two aspects
A) Dembeles lack of forward thinking and creativity
B) The missing link between midfield and attack
So it stands to reason Modric & VDV will be mentioned as they are the two roles these players are associated with.
However Holrby looks to be a player that can step in and offer a dynamic presence between midfield and attack, mixing up play, slow to fast, attempting to change the tempo and thats why fans are excited to see such a player, as he could potentially offer more then VDV in that role, yet that doesn't mean hes a better player overall.
As for Dembele I hesitate to be too harsh on him, as potentially I think he can be a top top player and for some reason is holding himself back, also there is this tendency to go missing for large chunks of the game, a problem him & Villas Boas need to address.
In fact, even a world class Barca struggle to break teams down at times, its hard to control a game, have a team pinned back and open them up, so its no wonder we're having more possession but finding it tough to break through.
However because we now play a different system, we can't compare if VDV & Modric would have been better this year (then last year) as we haven't had the opportunity to see them perform in a more controlling system, yet fans have been moaning about two aspects
A) Dembeles lack of forward thinking and creativity
B) The missing link between midfield and attack
So it stands to reason Modric & VDV will be mentioned as they are the two roles these players are associated with.
However Holrby looks to be a player that can step in and offer a dynamic presence between midfield and attack, mixing up play, slow to fast, attempting to change the tempo and thats why fans are excited to see such a player, as he could potentially offer more then VDV in that role, yet that doesn't mean hes a better player overall.
As for Dembele I hesitate to be too harsh on him, as potentially I think he can be a top top player and for some reason is holding himself back, also there is this tendency to go missing for large chunks of the game, a problem him & Villas Boas need to address.
Interesting thoughts, Spurf, and everyone else...
The team in full flight last year was a thing of beauty in a way this year's team is not, and at its best looked unbeatable...except by teams who had some kind of a mental edge, a group which included all the top teams but Arsenal. As good as it was, that team was fragile: built to fly, but liable to go missing when slogging was required. VDV and Modric were two of the fragile ones, to me, in different ways. Modric never seemed to have the slightest knock and always worked hard, but the bigger the moment, the more he tended to disappear. VDV was at his best in the big moments but he couldn't be bothered to train, apparently, didn't track back and ran out of gas late in games.
This one (so far!) looks a lot sturdier in every way, if less scintillating. I'm so happy to see Spurs routinely outworking and outpressing the opposition, when last year it was prone to get outworked and outpressed. AVB and the rest of the staff seem to have done a good job with fitness (eventually!). Spurs are looking stronger and stronger late in games.
I've got to say man for man it's pretty even, if anything I'd take this year's team over last. Added: Vertonghen, Dembele, Holtby, Gylfi, Dempsey. Subtracted: Modric, Ledley (though more like the last of Ledley for half a season) and VDV. If you say, Ade was much better last year, you have to add, yeah, but Defoe, Lennon and Bale are much better this year.
My biggest concern about this year's team is that last year and in the beginning of this year we exploited the squad's single greatest strength, which is speed. Now that teams aren't moving much from their end, the fact that Bale, Lennon and Defoe can outrun almost anyone isn't helping us the way it did. I wonder if/hope that AVB will do something to regain that advantage. On the other hand, the fact that AVB and the team are getting everyone else to react to what they are doing is a real accomplishment, something that couldn't have happened not long ago.
The moment where creativity is lacking is the moment both Holtby and Ade are coming into the squad. Let's hope the result is as fortuitous as the timing. Put another way, Jerome's striking played a huge role in carrying us 2/3 of the way through the season. Let's back Ade to take us over the finish line.
The team in full flight last year was a thing of beauty in a way this year's team is not, and at its best looked unbeatable...except by teams who had some kind of a mental edge, a group which included all the top teams but Arsenal. As good as it was, that team was fragile: built to fly, but liable to go missing when slogging was required. VDV and Modric were two of the fragile ones, to me, in different ways. Modric never seemed to have the slightest knock and always worked hard, but the bigger the moment, the more he tended to disappear. VDV was at his best in the big moments but he couldn't be bothered to train, apparently, didn't track back and ran out of gas late in games.
This one (so far!) looks a lot sturdier in every way, if less scintillating. I'm so happy to see Spurs routinely outworking and outpressing the opposition, when last year it was prone to get outworked and outpressed. AVB and the rest of the staff seem to have done a good job with fitness (eventually!). Spurs are looking stronger and stronger late in games.
I've got to say man for man it's pretty even, if anything I'd take this year's team over last. Added: Vertonghen, Dembele, Holtby, Gylfi, Dempsey. Subtracted: Modric, Ledley (though more like the last of Ledley for half a season) and VDV. If you say, Ade was much better last year, you have to add, yeah, but Defoe, Lennon and Bale are much better this year.
My biggest concern about this year's team is that last year and in the beginning of this year we exploited the squad's single greatest strength, which is speed. Now that teams aren't moving much from their end, the fact that Bale, Lennon and Defoe can outrun almost anyone isn't helping us the way it did. I wonder if/hope that AVB will do something to regain that advantage. On the other hand, the fact that AVB and the team are getting everyone else to react to what they are doing is a real accomplishment, something that couldn't have happened not long ago.
The moment where creativity is lacking is the moment both Holtby and Ade are coming into the squad. Let's hope the result is as fortuitous as the timing. Put another way, Jerome's striking played a huge role in carrying us 2/3 of the way through the season. Let's back Ade to take us over the finish line.
How can you mention Gylfi and Dismal Dempsey in virtually the same breath as Ledley King and Modric ?.
and who is Jerome ?. and when did we sign him ?.
Over reliance on Holtby, at this stage, could result in disappointment. Lets not throw him into the deep end just yet.
How can you mention Gylfi and Dismal Dempsey in virtually the same breath as Ledley King and Modric ?.
and who is Jerome ?. and when did we sign him ?.
Over reliance on Holtby, at this stage, could result in disappointment. Lets not throw him into the deep end just yet.
I know we haven't seen much of Holtby but I cannot help being excited by what I have seen. He exudes confidence, this player is no shrinking violet quietly finding his way into the team. He has come in and exploded with ideas and movement. For one so young his confidence is amazing. To come into a Spurs side of this level in a league he has no experience of and make a mark immediately is a bit special IMO.
How can you mention Gylfi and Dismal Dempsey in virtually the same breath as Ledley King and Modric ?.
and who is Jerome ?. and when did we sign him ?.
Over reliance on Holtby, at this stage, could result in disappointment. Lets not throw him into the deep end just yet.
1. Because I was summing up who arrived and who left.
2. Hell if I know. Why, did someone mention a "Jerome?"
3. I'm planning to over-rely on Holtby AND Ade, not merely Holtby.
How can you mention Gylfi and Dismal Dempsey in virtually the same breath as Ledley King and Modric ?.
and who is Jerome ?. and when did we sign him ?.
Over reliance on Holtby, at this stage, could result in disappointment. Lets not throw him into the deep end just yet.
Don't think we will over rely on Holtby,as for throwing him in at the deep end,he has come on twice as a sub,done well,it's time he started,after all,he is a german international,so i don't think he's being thrown in at the deep end
Rafa was great, but he rarely lasted (properly) longer than 70mins. He was injured quite a lot and was quite often completely missing when played out right (ok, that last one isn't 100% his fault).
Someone with perhaps less class but who is more consistent and can last a 90mins could be better overall imo.
I'm not saying anything whatsover about Holtby here. 2 sub appearances does not allow me to make a judgement
Someone with perhaps less class but who is more consistent and can last a 90mins could be better overall imo.
I'm not saying anything whatsover about Holtby here. 2 sub appearances does not allow me to make a judgement
4th place is testament to the fact that Spurs have adapted well to changes this season, but the current team is relying on hard graft and from moments of inspiration from Bale rather than the flair of last season. The current team lacks the quality of last season's team.
Any team would suffer from the loss of players of the calibre and class of King, Modric and vdV. Vertonghen, Dembele and even Dempsey are able replacements, but not in the same class. Holtby is a young player who cannot be expected to dictate games or play consistently each week. Modric and vdV had reached that level.
Between September and February last season, Spurs were playing a standard of football and getting the results of title contenders. The present team is well short of that level, although overall being comfortable in 4th is still very creditable.
Ideally for Spurs Vertonghen and Dembele would have been added to the squad from last season. Then there would be reason to be excited about your chances. Of course, all the three teams above you would have been able to do just that in the same circumstances- until you get a new stadium, qualify for CL regularly and can generally compete better financially, there was always be that disadvantage.
Any team would suffer from the loss of players of the calibre and class of King, Modric and vdV. Vertonghen, Dembele and even Dempsey are able replacements, but not in the same class. Holtby is a young player who cannot be expected to dictate games or play consistently each week. Modric and vdV had reached that level.
Between September and February last season, Spurs were playing a standard of football and getting the results of title contenders. The present team is well short of that level, although overall being comfortable in 4th is still very creditable.
Ideally for Spurs Vertonghen and Dembele would have been added to the squad from last season. Then there would be reason to be excited about your chances. Of course, all the three teams above you would have been able to do just that in the same circumstances- until you get a new stadium, qualify for CL regularly and can generally compete better financially, there was always be that disadvantage.
LDL
Why can't we expect Holtby to dictate games and play consistently? He is 22 and a full international for Germany. Did you say this about Beckham? Do Woolwich fans say this about Wilshere? He would undoubtedly have benefitted if Sandro was playing but we'll see that next year.
Why can't we expect Holtby to dictate games and play consistently? He is 22 and a full international for Germany. Did you say this about Beckham? Do Woolwich fans say this about Wilshere? He would undoubtedly have benefitted if Sandro was playing but we'll see that next year.
I hear you Tots., but this is the 'English Premier League'. If it was a beer, it would probably be the hardiest in the world.
I hear you Tots., but this is the 'English Premier League'. If it was a beer, it would probably be the hardiest in the world.
it's not that premier!!
The comparison is with vdV who was an experienced international and (some injury problems aside) could be relied upon to play somewhere near his best every time he pulled on the shirt. His reading of the game enabled him to take up those clever positions, in space in the penalty area often, which resulted in his healthy goalscoring record.
Holtby may prove to be a very good player, but you can't expect him to perform at vdV's level yet. vdV could be bracketed with other top players who have played a similar role for their clubs recently- Rooney, Mata, Silva, Gerrard etc. Holtby can't be expected to deliver to that extent at this time. Wilshere isn't and doesn't- although injuries have been a factor. Beckham was just becoming a first team regular at 22 in a team of all stars. The expectations were not as great.
