You don't think Demba works hard???
I couldn't disagree more (even if I'd only ever watched today's game), and I fail to see how anyone could lodge that criticism against any particular player in the squad after the last five games.
POLL - Leave Ba on the bench?
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You don't think Demba works hard???
I couldn't disagree more (even if I'd only ever watched today's game), and I fail to see how anyone could lodge that criticism against any particular player in the squad after the last five games.
Please read what I'm saying mate.
I said he doesn't try until he scores. Since he's scored in most of our games, he's tried hard, but since we've been playing differently and more as a team, he's not been scoring as much, and not been trying.
My point is he doesn't try unless he scores. If he doesn't score he doesn't try, he just tries to pick up the ball and score himself from every angle, instead of trying to pick out someone else.
Well he'll certainly have to work a bit harder at QPR...
Until his 'relegation clause' kicks in that is and perhaps we could nab him back for nowt?
Until his 'relegation clause' kicks in that is and perhaps we could nab him back for nowt?
How does anything I've said not apply to your argument? He didn't score tonight, and he tried pretty damn hard upfront.
Play him (although he'll need a rest at some stage).
He might want to impress Wenger anyway
I've got no problem with the lad. His decision making could be better but he is no greedier now than at any time in his career with us.
He might want to impress Wenger anyway
I've got no problem with the lad. His decision making could be better but he is no greedier now than at any time in his career with us.
Play him (although he'll need a rest at some stage).
He might want to impress Wenger anyway
I've got no problem with the lad. His decision making could be better but he is no greedier now than at any time in his career with us.
I agree, if Pardew is picking him knowing/thinking the team would be better without, and you'd have to say it should be very easy to gather whether that's true from a mixture of training/match stats/team spirit in the dressing room etc (not available to the many learned gents on internet forums, just as inside privy into player demands is pretty much never realistically available either), Pardew is a very poor excuse for a manager indeed. I don't think even the people that don't agree with his team selection and subs or simply don't like him, would ever assert that he's that bad.
If the role in which Demba is doing a magnificent job is harming overall team performance, Pardew needs to change it. As it is, I think we're playing quite nicely now, just not defending well at all. From the position Demba is placed, that has very little to do with him. At one point in the second half Pardew told him to move further up the pitch to give the team an option when they cleared it, because he was moving closer to our box trying to help.
If people think Demba has to run 8km a game to be worthwhile they can forget it. He's got dodgey knees and still raring through a good few Km as it is, and someone has to offer an option upfront at all times or we're screwed. He chases down goalies, he ruffs it with defenders and wins headers... Could he try harder for our team? Very much doubt it. Could he pass more? Up to Pardew and his vision of the role, as well as the roles of others who need to move beyond him so he has an option. Based on the last few games and the stats, it seems he's shooting well and performing well in the role he has.
I think Ba should be on the bench and we should focus on getting Cisse up to scratch as he is alot more deadly (IMO) then Ba is when on form! Dont get me wrong Ba is good and meybs the overall better player but when Cisse is on form he needs less then a sniff to get a brace!! If the paper talk is to be believed then Ba's attitude stinks! His out the box shooting is awful aswell! The goals will come (Perch will score in a 4 figure consecutive games 
) without Ba as they did last season, I'd have a different opinion if i didnt believe he was leaving in jan
) without Ba as they did last season, I'd have a different opinion if i didnt believe he was leaving in jan
I totally agree with Tash, as many know already.
Ba is too greedy, of course, there's nothing wrong with shooting at the correct times but it's all the other times where it a problem. Also, what is most annoying is that Ba normally has a better option to pass and gain more territory or an easy pass to retain the ball and not gift it to the opposition. If your opponent doesn't have the ball they can't score.
People say we've defended poorly but I say defending isn't just done by defenders in the final third of a football pitch. It's done by a TEAM. Ba shooting needlessly from range and therefore relinquishing possession gives the opponent an opportunity to build an attack of there own.
If Ba passed a bit more rather than shooting at in opportune moments we'd relieve the defence of a workload. Therefore conceding less chances and most likely less goals and in turn create more chances of our own and most likely score more ourselves!!
It is no coincidence that since we have changed our style from early season we are quite clearly playing much better and other people are scoring goals, other than Ba and we look more unified.
Yes, the defence needs a personnel update but this has been apparent for about 2 seasons. We had a decent defensive team ethic last year which served us evidently well. Something which we are doing again recently, something which Ba could contribute more to in my opinion for the reasons above.
Ba is too greedy, of course, there's nothing wrong with shooting at the correct times but it's all the other times where it a problem. Also, what is most annoying is that Ba normally has a better option to pass and gain more territory or an easy pass to retain the ball and not gift it to the opposition. If your opponent doesn't have the ball they can't score.
People say we've defended poorly but I say defending isn't just done by defenders in the final third of a football pitch. It's done by a TEAM. Ba shooting needlessly from range and therefore relinquishing possession gives the opponent an opportunity to build an attack of there own.
If Ba passed a bit more rather than shooting at in opportune moments we'd relieve the defence of a workload. Therefore conceding less chances and most likely less goals and in turn create more chances of our own and most likely score more ourselves!!
It is no coincidence that since we have changed our style from early season we are quite clearly playing much better and other people are scoring goals, other than Ba and we look more unified.
Yes, the defence needs a personnel update but this has been apparent for about 2 seasons. We had a decent defensive team ethic last year which served us evidently well. Something which we are doing again recently, something which Ba could contribute more to in my opinion for the reasons above.
no chance of the greedy bastard coming to QPR, Liverpool need at least one striker so he may go there.
But he may not be Rodgers sort of player (again)
As a thought it's acceptable, as long as people aren't going to games and shouting in the player's ear-holes stuff like that. The papers on top of people idly taking up their word as gospel are rapidly making his position untenable now in my opinion, which is just what such papers and such fans want, because then they can turn around when he's left and say "look, I was right" with smug satisfaction. I sense the crowd turning on him at every home game, and it's usually just one within hearing distance shouting more vocally about Demba that's getting more of the sheep to follow. If people are on his back, I don't see why he would stay at all.
I can't see any of what you have said as actual truth, however. "Of course he's too greedy", the statement of those who just agree with each other. It's not fact based at all. No, "greedy" is apparently some sort of psychic foretelling of what is going to happen at every moment, so they may decide whether to pass or shoot. It also relies heavily on your perception of their field of vision, which you have no access to, assumption of passing ability (Demba has a fairly limited passing range, he's not going to be doing reverse passes with the outside of a foot), and from what I can see a fixation with the notion he's always got a better option.
On the latter note, he had a better option precisely once yesterday, but he was in a position from which he has scored before. With his finishing stats the way they are, it seems a sensible decision to shoot from that position rather than attempt a pass that was actually very difficult. It would have required outside of the right foot to curl it away from the keeper and at the same time close enough to be infront of Cisse.
The only other time I think Cisse was beyond him, when Demba had possession, was in the first 4 minutes, when Ba shot and created the chance for Perch. Where was Cisse? Well he'd pealed left and was being marked by a Man Utd player, with little midfield support anywhere near the pair. One was facing goal with the ball, the other was facing away from goal looking at it. Ba should shoot from that position (especially with De Gea in nets), or hold it up and wait for support. Only thing is he created a chance with the shot, would he have created one by holding it up? Who knows... Oh wait, Demba is psychic.
Final 3rd defending is a pretty moot point, and seems like just the latest stick to add on to the racket. The best defence is good defence, not good offence, which actually allows for counter-offence. A lot of the goals this season have been from very poor defending, so unless you advocate time-wasting at every opportunity in every match, from every situation (after-all, that will cut down the "chances" the opposition get, in this fairy-tale. Just pass it along the back all game eh?), Demba isn't solely culpable, never-mind realistically culpable. Pretty sure the Birmingham tactic under Mcleish is what you'd get with your notions. Nobody wants that I can assure you.
This quote of yours I found most intriguing though;
"It is no coincidence that since we have changed our style from early season we are quite clearly playing much better and other people are scoring goals, other than Ba and we look more unified."
But Ba has scored goals too? Unless you mean we've only played well vs QPR and Man Utd? So either you're saying he's suddenly unselfish at detriment to your point, or Ba's role has changed for the benefit of the team ie Ba has been asked to do something different and it has had an improvement because he's doing it. That massively contravenes your scapegoat policy in my opinion.
Also, I notice there's no more "team-spirit effect" jibes about Demba, given the celebrations of the teams after goals.
Bottom line for me is that the discontent with Demba and the rumours has only intensified when we have been having a poorer season. I just don't believe in those kind of coincidences! People need to get off his back and stop believing everything they read. Even if he does leave its just football, get on with it. We need to stop looking for things that aren't there. Sure the media has their pantomime villains for our poor form and he is the leader followed by Simpson and Williamson. Reality is different for me as Demba has done well and worked hard. We are giving away goals for fun and that is the real issue. Those mentioned are not the ones whose performances that have dipped. Colo and Krul have cost us countless goals but its never mentioned because its not fashionable. They need to up their game. We need better players than Simpson and Willo but the current run is far from down to them.
Nothing has changed in Ba's play. Never been a good passer of the ball from the day he got here. I would be looking to rest him soon, possibly Arsenal because he looks tired.
Nothing has changed in Ba's play. Never been a good passer of the ball from the day he got here. I would be looking to rest him soon, possibly Arsenal because he looks tired.
I've been saying this for a long time now and even posted an article on it a couple of weeks ago.
Stoke does seems to be the game where we've changed our system. We are playing more as a team but still Ba is an individual in that and since then (6 games ago) we've had 6 different goalscoring methods (Ameobi, Ba, Bigiramana, Cisse, Perch, O.G. as opposed to just 3 different scorers in the previous 14.
We've also looked more dangerous in attack, hitting the woodwork and working the goalkeepers more often and haven't really deserved such a low points haul.
No one is saying Ba should be passing all the time because two of his long range efforts have led directly to goals. It's other occasions where he may have had a better option not only to pass and create a chance but to pass and hold possession longer.
Defending from the front and as a team is the best form of defence. An opinion yours differs to and that's fine but again it's no coincidence that the teams that occupy the upper end of the league also sit in and around the top of the possession table too.
I look at the back 4's of other EPL teams and there's not many that better our own and if they do its not by far meaning there's clearly other aspects of defending other than having good defenders. Man Utd sit 7 points clear of City at the top of the league neither have the best defence on the league and in Utd's case their defenders, individually, are no where near the best and certainly no better than ours.
Stoke does seems to be the game where we've changed our system. We are playing more as a team but still Ba is an individual in that and since then (6 games ago) we've had 6 different goalscoring methods (Ameobi, Ba, Bigiramana, Cisse, Perch, O.G. as opposed to just 3 different scorers in the previous 14.
We've also looked more dangerous in attack, hitting the woodwork and working the goalkeepers more often and haven't really deserved such a low points haul.
No one is saying Ba should be passing all the time because two of his long range efforts have led directly to goals. It's other occasions where he may have had a better option not only to pass and create a chance but to pass and hold possession longer.
Defending from the front and as a team is the best form of defence. An opinion yours differs to and that's fine but again it's no coincidence that the teams that occupy the upper end of the league also sit in and around the top of the possession table too.
I look at the back 4's of other EPL teams and there's not many that better our own and if they do its not by far meaning there's clearly other aspects of defending other than having good defenders. Man Utd sit 7 points clear of City at the top of the league neither have the best defence on the league and in Utd's case their defenders, individually, are no where near the best and certainly no better than ours.
Our poor defending has nothing to do with defending from the front. Ba and Cisse do their bit in that regard. Its the individual mistakes being made by Colo, Santon, Krul that are killing us. We need to get our concentration levels back to what they were and cut out the individual errors.
Agreed there have been too many errors but like I've said, if your opponent hasn't got the ball they can't score.
Holding onto the ball higher up the pitch is good defending. Shooting at in opportune moments doesn't exactly help the cause.
If the whole team worked the ball more, Ba especially, we'd most likely create more chances and therefore more goals. Goals change games and we'd most likely be better off.
Holding onto the ball higher up the pitch is good defending. Shooting at in opportune moments doesn't exactly help the cause.
If the whole team worked the ball more, Ba especially, we'd most likely create more chances and therefore more goals. Goals change games and we'd most likely be better off.
If the poll had actually been included, I would have voted to keep Ba in the team.
He's the best striker we've got and one of the PL's highest scorers.
Without him we'd struggle to score at all.
Papiss Cisse is a great finisher but is not as good all-round as a forward player.
He's the best striker we've got and one of the PL's highest scorers.
Without him we'd struggle to score at all.
Papiss Cisse is a great finisher but is not as good all-round as a forward player.
If I went to a game of football and our team refused to attack whenever possible, just to keep possession and waste time so the opposition couldn't score (and without good defence, the best kind of defence, we're not going to actually stop them scoring, only lessen our own chance of scoring), not only would I be infuriated with the tactic, I'd be watching our team go down without winning any matches. I think you also conveniently forget our best midfield has hardly played this season, so how you blame Demba "especially" seems unfair. Demba has to attack and has seemingly been given the mandate to shoot when the opportunity arises, as is clearly evidenced by the fact Pardew keeps playing him, and all the stats point to this being a successful tactic. Moving players beyond him so he has options is the only solution to Demba playing in any other way. At the moment that is not happening, but there are signs we may be seeing more of it. Marveaux for example has a freer role to push higher up, and Ben Arfa when he plays does the same. We've had 4 DMs in midfield a lot this season, which I think you'll accept makes it difficult for a striker to pass to another attacking option.
I think your argument deserves the most robust criticism, simply to prevent people reading these forums, jumping on a bandwagon and then increasing hostility towards the scapegoated player on the pitch. In my opinion, although it's probably seen as all hypothetical discussion on here, there are people who go to games informed by such "hypothetical" utterances, so such strong attempts to lay the blame at any player in particular requires rebuttal. As we are losing, any player the papers pick on is the automatic target, yet we were happy with Demba scoring the winners last season and working out wide for Cisse. Now all of a sudden he's a deeply selfish player hurting the team, just as "reports" of him leaving surface again. To me that's bullshit.
Being really hypothetical, if Demba leaves, what do we make of Pardew? People who say Demba are selfish and greedy are also inclined to believe he's threatening Pardew to play in a way to "suit" him. If he leaves, surely that makes Pardew hopeless?
If he stays, what is said then?
All these questions will be answered in a month or two, and I personally hope the crowd is patient with the topic and gives Ba full support until it is resolved, because otherwise we're inadvertently shoving Ba out of the door on the strength of an opinion and papertalk... How exactly is that helping the team? Imagine the morale in the dressing room if we started getting on everyone the papers ever mention...
We're creating plenty of chances though. Yes Demba could improve his decision making but we showed last season that if the defence functions properly his sometimes ill judged shooting does little damage. Indeed it has created plenty of tap ins for others since arriving at the club. Hopefully in time he will get slightly better but at present moment we need him and need to focus our efforts on cutting out our silly errors. When we had a back 4 of Simpson, Saylor, Colo, Raylor for the first 11 games of last season, our concentration was at a high level. Its been almost comedic of late. It will probably be an unpopular thing to say (and may be why Pardew/Colo fell out), but Colo needs to lead by example here and start marshaling the defence again. His decision making is causing more goals against than any of Demba's decisions.
To me we can be guilty of focusing on the wrong problems simply because the papers are having us believe he is holding the manager to ransom and angling for a move. There is no hard evidence to suggest either is true. Furthermore the board were happy to allow this clause and transfers are all part and parcel of football. On the pitch the lad is guilty of little, he still plays the way he always has. Off the pitch likewise he has done little wrong. You could say he should wind his agents in as its unsettling but who is it unsettling? The players and manager. Not by the looks of things. Its unsettling the fans because they are allowing the media to unsettle them. We should be wise to this crap by now.
For me we need to get the basics of defending right before we think about anything else. This crazy offside we have begun experimenting with is useless. We need to go back to using the offside more sparingly and concentrate on being more assured with our blocks, tackles etc. As I say its the defending basics the defenders are getting wrong that are hurting us.
Who's saying we shouldn't attack at every opportunity?!
I am agreeing that the defence should and could be better but isolating Ba, he is too greedy. I also agree he hasn't changed from last season but perhaps he needs to. It was all good and well when we were winning but when you start losing, you start looking at why.
If we can't defend very well as individuals we need to defend better as a team by holding the ball longer and higher up the pitch. Ba shooting at every opportunity isn't the best for the team.
I am fully behind Ba when he's on the pitch but as a paying customer I'm entitled to an opinion. It is my opinion that he's a greedy player and that we'd be in a better situation had we been without him. Of course this is all hypothetical because we'll never know for sure. We'll have to wait until January to see what happens.
There's no denying that Ba is good but he's a player that I feel doesn't fit into a system that we play our best stuff in. We are playing similar to the final months of last season now, again, no coincidence that performances are at a similar level, shame the results haven't been of similar reward.
Ba as an individual plays very well in a direct system. The rest of the team however play better in a more patient, fast attack manner.
I am agreeing that the defence should and could be better but isolating Ba, he is too greedy. I also agree he hasn't changed from last season but perhaps he needs to. It was all good and well when we were winning but when you start losing, you start looking at why.
If we can't defend very well as individuals we need to defend better as a team by holding the ball longer and higher up the pitch. Ba shooting at every opportunity isn't the best for the team.
I am fully behind Ba when he's on the pitch but as a paying customer I'm entitled to an opinion. It is my opinion that he's a greedy player and that we'd be in a better situation had we been without him. Of course this is all hypothetical because we'll never know for sure. We'll have to wait until January to see what happens.
There's no denying that Ba is good but he's a player that I feel doesn't fit into a system that we play our best stuff in. We are playing similar to the final months of last season now, again, no coincidence that performances are at a similar level, shame the results haven't been of similar reward.
Ba as an individual plays very well in a direct system. The rest of the team however play better in a more patient, fast attack manner.
Interesting stat on the guardian today.Ba has had the second most shots (65) so far this season behind Suarez (82).
Considering we don't make that many chances I find it remarkable.
Considering we don't make that many chances I find it remarkable.
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