Article: The harsh reality of Prem football. |Football Southampton

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Ian Thumwood

Ian Thumwood

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2011
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It's been interesting listening to the impressions of some of the neutral football fans at work who have been rightly full of praise for Saints gutsy and determined performance. I think we really raised our game yesterday and but for some baffling substitutions and naive defending, should have come away with a point.

However, I think the last two matches have been a salutary lesson for us and tends to reinforce the impression that we have been promoted far too soon. Adkins' has been a revelation in what he has achieved and the back-to-back promotions ensure that his reputation as a "great" Saint is cemented for all time. That said, I have to say that plucky endeavour is not enough in the Premier league and I fear for what the rest of the season holds for us. Impartial fans I work with have all commented that our defence is a soft touch and even Nathaniel Clyne (who has been the best signed over the summer in my opinion) hasn't particularly impressed non-Saints fans. The two central defenders have not only been singled out a inadequate by Saints fans alone and friends who support other clubs have been staggered by the idea that Fonte has progressed through three flights with us . Fonte seems particularly to have been ridiculed and perhaps it is not surprising that he has found the premiership so difficult since his performances last season were a shade below what he had achieved in League One. A step too far perhaps? I have no idea what the new Japanese will be like, but Saints should have snapped up some old pro's with Premier league experience as the current CD combination will only ensure that we have our pants pulled down during every game. The purchase of Ramirez is baffling, not least as the Uruguay team for whom he played in the recent Olympics were particularly uninspired. Can't recall him at all. The recent additions seem to sit more squarely with Adkins' swash-buckling style of football form the last two seasons and are , perhaps, at odds with what is required for the top flight where the style of football is more controlled and measured.We would have been far better trying to get someone who could fill the old Jimmy Case role of ensuring that every-one's chin is kept up in the face of adversity as well as adding a bit of steel to the centre of the park where it is needed. I am concerned that Ramirez does not fit the typical "Saints mould" and will be too much of a luxury player when someone with a degree of British grit and footballing vision is what is required. This seems a very bizarre and perhaps troubling purchase. Shame that we don't have the likes of a Paul Scholes!

I think that the gulf between Saints and the other premiership teams is quite telling. There are only a few players such as Lallana, Puncheon. Lambert and Schneiderlin who seem of the requisite quality even if Ward-Prowse does look an exciting prospect. Adkins' also seems to be totally out of his depth in this league and the cruelty of the Premiership will leave his lack of nous totally exposed. Back in the summer, I thought that it would be tough but I know think that we will be unable to make anything other than a spirited attempt to stay up. My fear is that we will match the likes of Swindon and Derby County in the stakes of failing to acquire points. I will be staggered if we acquire more than 30 points this season - 20 will more realistic.

The English Premiership is supposed to be the greatest football league in the world yet I haven't seen anything in the two home games to suggest that Adkins has the savvy to cope in this league or that we have the ability to at least match the opposition and grind out a victory. On the basis of what we have achieved in the last three games, we are a Championship side masquerading as Premiership material and effectively unlikely to make any more impression on the top flight than Burnley or Blackpool.
 
A sobering read, indeed. But, maybe a tad harsh on Fonte. He didn't just gain two consecutive promotions, he was a very accomplished Championship defender when we bought him from Palace. Now, saying that, this most recent step up could be a step too far.
Gaston Ramirez, baffling is the word I would use. A big price tag, a young south american, massive pressure on the gaffer. It does concern me, I must admit.
We need to learn from these defeats & quick. The problem with the Prem is you are not gifted time.
 
Ian Thumwood said:
It's been interesting listening to the impressions of some of the neutral football fans at work who have been rightly full of praise for Saints gutsey and determined performance. I think we really raised our game yesterday and but for some baffling substitutions and naive defending, should have come away with a point.

However, I think the last two matches have been a salutory lesson for us and tends to reinforce the impression that we have been promoted far too soon. Adkins' has been a revelation in what he has achieved and the back-to-back promotions ensure that his reputation as a "great" Saint is cemented for all time. That said, I have to say that plucky endeavour is not enough in the Premier league and I fear for what the rest of the season holds for us. Impartial fans I work with have all commented that our defence is a soft touch and even Nathaniel Clyne (who has been the best signed over the summer in my opinion) hasn't particularly impressed non-Saints fans. The two central defenders have not only been singled out a inadequate by Saints fans alone and friends who support other clubs have been staggered by the idea that Fonte has progressed through three flights with us . Fonte seems particularly to have been ridiculed and perhaps it is not surprising that he has found the premierhsip so difficult since his performances last season were a shade below what he had achieved in League One. A step too far perhaps? I have no idea what the new Japanese will be like, but Saints should have snapped up some old pro's with Premier league experience as the current CD combination will only ensure that we have our pants pulled down during every game. The purchase of Ramirez is baffling, not least as the Uraguay team for whom he played in the recent Olympics were particularly uninspired. Can't recall him at all. The recent additions seem to sit more squarely with Adkins' swash-buckling style of footnball form the last two seasons and are , perhaps, at odds with what is required for the top flight where the style of football is more controlled and measured.We would have been far better trying to get someone who could fill the old Jimmy Case role of ensuring that everyone's chin is kept up in the face of advserity as well as adding a bit of steel to the centre of the park where it is needed. I am concerned that Ramirez does not fit the typical "Saints mould" and will be too much of a luxury player when someone with a degree of British grit and footballing vision is what is required. This seems a very bizaree and perhaps troubling purchase. Shame that we don't have the likes of a Paul Scholes!

I think that the gulf between Saints and the other premiership teams is quite telling. There are only a few players such as Lallana, Puncheon. Lambert and Schneiderlin who seem of the requisite quality even if Ward-Prowse does look an exciting prospect. Adkins' also seems to be totally out of his depth in this league and the cruelty of the Premiership will leave his lack of nous totally exposed. Back in the summer, I thought that it would be tough but I know think that we will be unable to make anything other than a spirited attempt to stay up. My fear is that we will match the likes of Swindon and Derby County in the stakes of failing to acquire points. I will be staggered if we acquire more than 30 points this season - 20 will more realistic.

The English Premiership is supposed to be the greatest football league in the world yet I haven't seen anything in the two home games to suggest that Adkins has the savvy to cope in this league or that we have the ability to at least match the opposition and grind out a victory. On the basis of what we have achieved in the last three games, we are a Championship side mascerading as Premiership material and effectively unlikely to make any more impression on the top flight than Burnley or Blackpool.
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I appreciate your concerns, but three games (two against the best in the World perhaps) are simply not enough to form an opinion, the failings are obvious, but not that difficult to repair, patience is the name of the game at this moment in time. If at Christmas we are rock bottom I will look forward to going down with a nice parachute payment, another sparkling Promotion Season and back on track for the 5 year plan.
 
As a Reading fan, I'm clearly a neutral where Southampton are concerned but, from what I saw of your games against City and Utd, I can't see you having too much to worry about this season. If you can play like you did in both those games there aren't many teams going to survive such onslaughts.

And I wouldn't concern yourselves too much about the Wigan defeat. They seem to be fired up this season, the manager seems to be getting what he wants from the team and I doubt they will struggle like they have in previous seasons.

If Adkins can keep Saints playing like they did yesterday I can see you looking at, at least, a mid table position come the end of the season.

But I understand your uncertainty, I'm just the same with Reading. Its much easier to be objective about other teams.

Good luck for the rest of the season.
 
Ian, you thought we'd get beaten 5-1 and Ferguson would tactically outclass Adkins, so i'll take your post with a pinch of salt.

Also, for anybody who has said I'M negative...
 
Ian Thumwood said:
It's been interesting listening to the impressions of some of the neutral football fans at work who have been rightly full of praise for Saints gutsey and determined performance. I think we really raised our game yesterday and but for some baffling substitutions and naive defending, should have come away with a point.

However, I think the last two matches have been a salutory lesson for us and tends to reinforce the impression that we have been promoted far too soon. Adkins' has been a revelation in what he has achieved and the back-to-back promotions ensure that his reputation as a "great" Saint is cemented for all time. That said, I have to say that plucky endeavour is not enough in the Premier league and I fear for what the rest of the season holds for us. Impartial fans I work with have all commented that our defence is a soft touch and even Nathaniel Clyne (who has been the best signed over the summer in my opinion) hasn't particularly impressed non-Saints fans. The two central defenders have not only been singled out a inadequate by Saints fans alone and friends who support other clubs have been staggered by the idea that Fonte has progressed through three flights with us . Fonte seems particularly to have been ridiculed and perhaps it is not surprising that he has found the premierhsip so difficult since his performances last season were a shade below what he had achieved in League One. A step too far perhaps? I have no idea what the new Japanese will be like, but Saints should have snapped up some old pro's with Premier league experience as the current CD combination will only ensure that we have our pants pulled down during every game. The purchase of Ramirez is baffling, not least as the Uraguay team for whom he played in the recent Olympics were particularly uninspired. Can't recall him at all. The recent additions seem to sit more squarely with Adkins' swash-buckling style of footnball form the last two seasons and are , perhaps, at odds with what is required for the top flight where the style of football is more controlled and measured.We would have been far better trying to get someone who could fill the old Jimmy Case role of ensuring that everyone's chin is kept up in the face of advserity as well as adding a bit of steel to the centre of the park where it is needed. I am concerned that Ramirez does not fit the typical "Saints mould" and will be too much of a luxury player when someone with a degree of British grit and footballing vision is what is required. This seems a very bizaree and perhaps troubling purchase. Shame that we don't have the likes of a Paul Scholes!

I think that the gulf between Saints and the other premiership teams is quite telling. There are only a few players such as Lallana, Puncheon. Lambert and Schneiderlin who seem of the requisite quality even if Ward-Prowse does look an exciting prospect. Adkins' also seems to be totally out of his depth in this league and the cruelty of the Premiership will leave his lack of nous totally exposed. Back in the summer, I thought that it would be tough but I know think that we will be unable to make anything other than a spirited attempt to stay up. My fear is that we will match the likes of Swindon and Derby County in the stakes of failing to acquire points. I will be staggered if we acquire more than 30 points this season - 20 will more realistic.

The English Premiership is supposed to be the greatest football league in the world yet I haven't seen anything in the two home games to suggest that Adkins has the savvy to cope in this league or that we have the ability to at least match the opposition and grind out a victory. On the basis of what we have achieved in the last three games, we are a Championship side mascerading as Premiership material and effectively unlikely to make any more impression on the top flight than Burnley or Blackpool.
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Did you go to many league 1 and games in the championship in the relegation season?
 
Ian Thumwood said:
It's been interesting listening to the impressions of some of the neutral football fans at work who have been rightly full of praise for Saints gutsey and determined performance. I think we really raised our game yesterday and but for some baffling substitutions and naive defending, should have come away with a point.

However, I think the last two matches have been a salutory lesson for us and tends to reinforce the impression that we have been promoted far too soon. Adkins' has been a revelation in what he has achieved and the back-to-back promotions ensure that his reputation as a "great" Saint is cemented for all time. That said, I have to say that plucky endeavour is not enough in the Premier league and I fear for what the rest of the season holds for us. Impartial fans I work with have all commented that our defence is a soft touch and even Nathaniel Clyne (who has been the best signed over the summer in my opinion) hasn't particularly impressed non-Saints fans. The two central defenders have not only been singled out a inadequate by Saints fans alone and friends who support other clubs have been staggered by the idea that Fonte has progressed through three flights with us . Fonte seems particularly to have been ridiculed and perhaps it is not surprising that he has found the premierhsip so difficult since his performances last season were a shade below what he had achieved in League One. A step too far perhaps? I have no idea what the new Japanese will be like, but Saints should have snapped up some old pro's with Premier league experience as the current CD combination will only ensure that we have our pants pulled down during every game. The purchase of Ramirez is baffling, not least as the Uraguay team for whom he played in the recent Olympics were particularly uninspired. Can't recall him at all. The recent additions seem to sit more squarely with Adkins' swash-buckling style of footnball form the last two seasons and are , perhaps, at odds with what is required for the top flight where the style of football is more controlled and measured.We would have been far better trying to get someone who could fill the old Jimmy Case role of ensuring that everyone's chin is kept up in the face of advserity as well as adding a bit of steel to the centre of the park where it is needed. I am concerned that Ramirez does not fit the typical "Saints mould" and will be too much of a luxury player when someone with a degree of British grit and footballing vision is what is required. This seems a very bizaree and perhaps troubling purchase. Shame that we don't have the likes of a Paul Scholes!

I think that the gulf between Saints and the other premiership teams is quite telling. There are only a few players such as Lallana, Puncheon. Lambert and Schneiderlin who seem of the requisite quality even if Ward-Prowse does look an exciting prospect. Adkins' also seems to be totally out of his depth in this league and the cruelty of the Premiership will leave his lack of nous totally exposed. Back in the summer, I thought that it would be tough but I know think that we will be unable to make anything other than a spirited attempt to stay up. My fear is that we will match the likes of Swindon and Derby County in the stakes of failing to acquire points. I will be staggered if we acquire more than 30 points this season - 20 will more realistic.

The English Premiership is supposed to be the greatest football league in the world yet I haven't seen anything in the two home games to suggest that Adkins has the savvy to cope in this league or that we have the ability to at least match the opposition and grind out a victory. On the basis of what we have achieved in the last three games, we are a Championship side mascerading as Premiership material and effectively unlikely to make any more impression on the top flight than Burnley or Blackpool.
Click to expand...

A solid post and I agree with a few points but disagree with others.

Our inability to close out games against Man City and Man United doesn't mean we will only rack up twenty points. I was at the Wigan game and I was disappointing with our performance but we have shown some genuine positives and there were defiantly some positives to take out of yesterday - Lallana and Schneiderlins performances in particular. I agree about Fonte, I don't think hes good enough but my opinion on our season and our new signings will be reserved until we have played 10 matches - until then I just feel its too difficult to judge.
 
My biggest concern from the first 3 games is that we become one of "those" teams. We were very good against Man City and Utd, and on another day we may of got points from them. Against Wigan we were poor to say the least. I just hope that we won't up our game against the big teams, and lose valiantly, then become complacent against the smaller teams.

If we can play at the level we have shown against Utd and City then I think we will be OK, we are going to concede alot imo, but play at those levels and we will score a fair few aswell, hopefully enough to win
 
You've played two of the best teams in the prem at this time and scored 2 against both of them !
My only worry for you would be that at the moment you are new to everyone so there is an element of surprise to an extent with your play and players.
This changes after xmas when teams become wise and adapt to the way you play, points do become harder to get and as you have seen the prem is an unforgiving animal, make a mistake and its a goal !
But if you can keep your top players fit i think you'll be ok.
 
The problem for Saints is that a lack of experience of the PL runs through the club at every level.

Nigel and Nicola have to learn super fast.

As to our players they in the main are young and naive and do not have the cynical or professional approach of some of the hardened pros in the PL. Yesterday we did not have the strong physical presence of many of the MU players who are in their prime.

Our lads are still learning their game and are to a certain extent are novices at this level. They need guidance from Nigel but he is also learning and fast.

This season will be hard for them all and we will struggle without doubt. I still maintain that Nicola needs a mentor for Nigel.

I just hope that the setbacks don't knock the confidence of Nigel or some of the great young players that we have.
 
Its a steep learning curve that they will learn from. At times we played the two best teams off the park and scored twice in each game. All ifs and buts, but if we had a little bit of luck against Wigan then we would all be smug little bunnies now. I think your comments about Nigel are bang out of order, for me he has shown a strength that has impressed me, a willingness to change the team yesterday did not cause the defeat- just bad defending
 
It is a reasoned comment, but it is three games (4, let's include Arsenal). I remember taking my mate to see Blackpool at home, Brsitol City at Home and he saw us against Blackpool, leicester, Leeds, Boro and Reading away on the TV.... he didn't rate us and said we wouldn't get out of the Championship. He thought the defense was awful. We got promoted.

We are not here to win the league or qualify for the champions league this season. Survival ticks a box this year.

Let's judge after 10 games.
 
Ian, I compliment you on the quality of you post. You have set out you views in a constructive and thoughtful manner. Whilst you may receive dismissive one-liners about your wrongly perceived disloyalty there are points I would like to expand further with you.

Defensively, we had our weaknesses last season; there was concern with Big J was injured at the start and Seaborne was getting into drunken brawls outside a nightclub. We had Martin and Fonte and what seems more by luck than anything else we found Jos. – whom we quickly signed when we realised he was better than anyone expected.

We carried the season though with this lack of real depth at the back and were able to negate this by playing excellent possession football (being both technically superior and most probably fitter than others teams). We failed to address this problem in the closed-season; busying ourselves with strikers and attacking midfielders – even sending Martin out on loan without anybody lined up to replace him. This shows either a level of naivety or a genuine disregard to addressing the problem that we have had now for more than 12 months.

Adkins showed last season a lack of astuteness away from home last season; rather than playing out the first 45 mins getting to grips with the opposition, we seemed hell-bent on attacking football. On more than a few occasions the defensive frailties we possess were evident by the number of weak goals we gave away. If those among the faithful were not aware of the need to be tight at the back – there can be little doubt now.
This lack of tactical awareness has been evident as you have expounded already; the player I most wanted to come on when Scholes stepped onto the pitch was either Chaplow or Hammond (but he has gone) – someone man-mark him and bustle in out of the game – but our replacements were two attackers and an attacking midfield player. The logic’ for this was to give us pace up front!! I am reminded of the Blackpool fixture last season when we were losing 1-2 and Holloway brought on a second striker and changed to from 4-5-1 to 4-4-2 and then we overran them down the wings and Lambert scored in injury time. Hollowway thought that by bringing on a second front man – he had the chance of getting a third goal. I thought he was a fool for throwing a winnable game.

Whilst a lot of Saints fan will languish in the praise of how close we came to overturning City and Utd – we have no points and conceded 8 goals in 3 games – 5 at home. We should have closed down both games – exciting it may have been; but we need to grind out points and I am not sure we have the quality on the pitch – certainly not at the back - nor the tactical awareness on the bench to achieve this.
 
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