Off Topic Isak

[Roland Deschain]

I don't necessarily agree with that supposition. 4-3-3 should be fine with Woltemade as the forward, we just need to play it differently.
The last 3 seasons, we have been up at the top of the charts for possession won in the opponents 3rd. This season we are down at the bottom of the list for this. It would indicate that we are looking for more control in matches rather than the intense press for, I suspect, 3 reasons:

1. The massive injury crisis in the last Champions League season
2. Woltemade does not have the pace to press from the front as effectively as Isak
3. More teams are going to sit in low blocks against us so there's a desire to hold possession and draw them out

If we are looking for a controlled game then Woltemade dropping deep is successful if our wingers and midfielders overlap him, either for a 1st time flick or so he has someone ahead of him when he looks up after holding the ball up. The full backs should support this by reinforcing the midfield (Tino) or keeping the width high up the pitch to stretch defenses (Hall). This crude diagram should show what I mean:

You must log in or register to see images

Yellow for ball movement
Blue for player movement

I've used Miley in the 6 as I think Tonali could be utilised bombing forward in the 8 as he does for Italy. We could use Ramsey, Joelinton or, if needs must, Willock in the 8 to keep Tonali in the 6 (Almost forgot what it was like to have a squad)

Disclaimer: I am in no way a tactical expert, this is all opinion and dotted lines

I’ll debunk this with one word: opposition.

The problem with anything in our formation is Woltemade is the only creative outlet we have, everyone else is a straight line runner. When the opposition set up deeper, as they frequently do, and let us just have the ball there’s sod all we do with it. We have industrious midfielders, counter attacking wingers, which in possession makes us kinda useless. This has been compounded by a complete lack of support from full backs as Burn, Trips and Krafth are more or less plain crap. When you get a lot of posssession you need a bit of magic and our tired formation shunts the spark of Woltemade right up top with no direct support from, say, a 10 and no wide threat from attacking full backs as we should theoretically be able to overload.

What has been happening is Burn in particular is being asked to push up into support leaving gaping holes as he’s fairly crap at anything in attack including heading, bizarrely. Where we have had success is as you rightly say runners off Nick but this could be done with a second striker, or a 10 near him. In eddies tried and tested 433 he’s very isolated, the team push up ponderously slowly and eventually we lose the ball.

You could argue Nick can drop with players off him, but Murphy doesn’t play that way and Gordon has Burn behind him, a huge issue. Joelinton is transitioning into MMA so also losing his way and we’re left with - as usual - industry rather than quality. 3 CBs has, under Howe, been even worse than 433 again because Burn is easy to target, we end up with straight line runners on the touchline in a dreadfully un-creative 541. The solution for me is to get into a 532 or a 4231, anything to give Nick something central to work off. 532 would actually be worth exploring but again our transfer pollicy has restricted us to just buying the same type of players we already have, which in turn makes us incredibly predictable.

 

[Magnet]

I’ll debunk this with one word: opposition.

The problem with anything in our formation is Woltemade is the only creative outlet we have, everyone else is a straight line runner. When the opposition set up deeper, as they frequently do, and let us just have the ball there’s sod all we do with it. We have industrious midfielders, counter attacking wingers, which in possession makes us kinda useless. This has been compounded by a complete lack of support from full backs as Burn, Trips and Krafth are more or less plain crap. When you get a lot of posssession you need a bit of magic and our tired formation shunts the spark of Woltemade right up top with no direct support from, say, a 10 and no wide threat from attacking full backs as we should theoretically be able to overload.

What has been happening is Burn in particular is being asked to push up into support leaving gaping holes as he’s fairly crap at anything in attack including heading, bizarrely. Where we have had success is as you rightly say runners off Nick but this could be done with a second striker, or a 10 near him. In eddies tried and tested 433 he’s very isolated, the team push up ponderously slowly and eventually we lose the ball.

You could argue Nick can drop with players off him, but Murphy doesn’t play that way and Gordon has Burn behind him, a huge issue. Joelinton is transitioning into MMA so also losing his way and we’re left with - as usual - industry rather than quality. 3 CBs has, under Howe, been even worse than 433 again because Burn is easy to target, we end up with straight line runners on the touchline in a dreadfully un-creative 541. The solution for me is to get into a 532 or a 4231, anything to give Nick something central to work off. 532 would actually be worth exploring but again our transfer pollicy has restricted us to just buying the same type of players we already have, which in turn makes us incredibly predictable.

So who should we sign? You are talking about 99% of teams. We aren't signing Vini Jr or similar as they won't come yet.
You're also complaining about our second and third choice players in the main.
Great in theory but now try it in the real world.

 

[Maximin Effort]

I’ll debunk this with one word: opposition.

The problem with anything in our formation is Woltemade is the only creative outlet we have, everyone else is a straight line runner. When the opposition set up deeper, as they frequently do, and let us just have the ball there’s sod all we do with it. We have industrious midfielders, counter attacking wingers, which in possession makes us kinda useless. This has been compounded by a complete lack of support from full backs as Burn, Trips and Krafth are more or less plain crap. When you get a lot of posssession you need a bit of magic and our tired formation shunts the spark of Woltemade right up top with no direct support from, say, a 10 and no wide threat from attacking full backs as we should theoretically be able to overload.

What has been happening is Burn in particular is being asked to push up into support leaving gaping holes as he’s fairly crap at anything in attack including heading, bizarrely. Where we have had success is as you rightly say runners off Nick but this could be done with a second striker, or a 10 near him. In eddies tried and tested 433 he’s very isolated, the team push up ponderously slowly and eventually we lose the ball.

You could argue Nick can drop with players off him, but Murphy doesn’t play that way and Gordon has Burn behind him, a huge issue. Joelinton is transitioning into MMA so also losing his way and we’re left with - as usual - industry rather than quality. 3 CBs has, under Howe, been even worse than 433 again because Burn is easy to target, we end up with straight line runners on the touchline in a dreadfully un-creative 541. The solution for me is to get into a 532 or a 4231, anything to give Nick something central to work off. 532 would actually be worth exploring but again our transfer pollicy has restricted us to just buying the same type of players we already have, which in turn makes us incredibly predictable.

There was a reason that I put Tino & Hall in the image as I agree that with Burn, Krafth and, to a lesser extent, Trippier, we are hindered in being able to threaten from the flanks.
As for the 10, currently Bruno is in the 91st percentile of chance creating midfielders in the league so there is the capability there. Miley has been known to be able to thread some nice balls through defenses when he is allowed to play a little riskier. I think the bigger struggle than "not having a 10" is the off the ball movement to support Woltemade hasn't been good enough (hence Tonali being higher in my example. Ramsey is also decent at it)

If Woltemade drops deep then defenders have to follow him or allow him to turn. If a CB moves out of the defensive line then a midfielder or winger should be moving into that space to create an overload. If the CB's stay then Woltemade can turn and then use his passing range to find a runner. There is too much passivity in our squad, with players just standing still for the ball rather than trying to find space between. KDB wouldn't be able to find a player if they didn't make the run.

The question then becomes: Why are we so passive currently?
I think you are right that we don't have confidence in Burn or Krafth to allow them to be left facing a pacey 1 on 1. They also carry no threat moving forwards so an overload involving those 2 is ignored by the opposition, allowing them to stay tight on our wingers.

I don't think 4-2-3-1 gives us anything all that different from our current set-up as with the players we have available, Bruno moves into the 10 with a double pivot of Miley and Tonali for me. Essentially the midfield triangle has been inverted. We (potentailly) have a player closer to Woltemade but also (potentially) lose the pressure easing fouls in our own half.

3-5-2 is more interesting but we are still going to fall down in the LWB position. I can only see Joelinton over there at the moment which I don't like (assuming Hall isn't playing). Maybe Elanga, but I don't see Barnes or Gordon as being able to play that role.

Personally, I would quite like to do a Glasner and look at the 3-4-3 with Gordon and Bruno as the 10's with Miley & Tonali as the double Pivot (although we still have the same issue at LWB).

In my opinion, we don't have the solutions in the squad until Hall is back and fit enough to start (Trippier is doing a decent enough job at RB but would prefer Tino in there). A new LB who can play RB, such as Joaquin Seys (21) from Club Brugge, should be a priority if we are not going to start playing Ashby, A.Murphy or Shahar.

 

[Roland Deschain]

There was a reason that I put Tino & Hall in the image as I agree that with Burn, Krafth and, to a lesser extent, Trippier, we are hindered in being able to threaten from the flanks.
As for the 10, currently Bruno is in the 91st percentile of chance creating midfielders in the league so there is the capability there. Miley has been known to be able to thread some nice balls through defenses when he is allowed to play a little riskier. I think the bigger struggle than "not having a 10" is the off the ball movement to support Woltemade hasn't been good enough (hence Tonali being higher in my example. Ramsey is also decent at it)

If Woltemade drops deep then defenders have to follow him or allow him to turn. If a CB moves out of the defensive line then a midfielder or winger should be moving into that space to create an overload. If the CB's stay then Woltemade can turn and then use his passing range to find a runner. There is too much passivity in our squad, with players just standing still for the ball rather than trying to find space between. KDB wouldn't be able to find a player if they didn't make the run.

The question then becomes: Why are we so passive currently?
I think you are right that we don't have confidence in Burn or Krafth to allow them to be left facing a pacey 1 on 1. They also carry no threat moving forwards so an overload involving those 2 is ignored by the opposition, allowing them to stay tight on our wingers.

I don't think 4-2-3-1 gives us anything all that different from our current set-up as with the players we have available, Bruno moves into the 10 with a double pivot of Miley and Tonali for me. Essentially the midfield triangle has been inverted. We (potentailly) have a player closer to Woltemade but also (potentially) lose the pressure easing fouls in our own half.

3-5-2 is more interesting but we are still going to fall down in the LWB position. I can only see Joelinton over there at the moment which I don't like (assuming Hall isn't playing). Maybe Elanga, but I don't see Barnes or Gordon as being able to play that role.

Personally, I would quite like to do a Glasner and look at the 3-4-3 with Gordon and Bruno as the 10's with Miley & Tonali as the double Pivot (although we still have the same issue at LWB).

In my opinion, we don't have the solutions in the squad until Hall is back and fit enough to start (Trippier is doing a decent enough job at RB but would prefer Tino in there). A new LB who can play RB, such as Joaquin Seys (21) from Club Brugge, should be a priority if we are not going to start playing Ashby, A.Murphy or Shahar.

The last paragraph sums it up. We could buy Seys, and he wouldn't play regularly until Krafth had an ACL.

Modern formations that are doing well are vastly different from ours and, worse, we do not have any options to try them. Glasner's is a great example, the best line up in a 3-4-3 would probs have Gordon, Elanga and Barnes on the bench! Murph could do the right, but we've put over £150m into straight line running wingers who blow more cold than hot - somebody needs to carry the can for that incredibly short sighted approach, and I'm (obviously) looking at Howe.

 

[Maximin Effort]

The last paragraph sums it up. We could buy Seys, and he wouldn't play regularly until Krafth had an ACL.

Modern formations that are doing well are vastly different from ours and, worse, we do not have any options to try them. Glasner's is a great example, the best line up in a 3-4-3 would probs have Gordon, Elanga and Barnes on the bench! Murph could do the right, but we've put over £150m into straight line running wingers who blow more cold than hot - somebody needs to carry the can for that incredibly short sighted approach, and I'm (obviously) looking at Howe.

I would counter this with:
The leaders of the Premier League (Arsenal), La Liga (Real Madrid), Serie A (Napoli), Ligue 1 (PSG) & Liga Portugal (Porto) all lined up in a 4-3-3 formation in their last domestic match (Bayern use a 4-3-2-1). These are probably all played in different ways, but it does show that even if 3 at the back is in vogue, the formation we use with the right players and manager is successful.

 

[Roland Deschain]

I would counter this with:
The leaders of the Premier League (Arsenal), La Liga (Real Madrid), Serie A (Napoli), Ligue 1 (PSG) & Liga Portugal (Porto) all lined up in a 4-3-3 formation in their last domestic match (Bayern use a 4-3-2-1). These are probably all played in different ways, but it does show that even if 3 at the back is in vogue, the formation we use with the right players and manager is successful.

And which of those have wingers who are these one dimensional straight line runners? None. There is creativity across all of those teams in wide positions, ours are ****ing bang average. Plus look at the full backs, again miles away from Burn and Krafth. Same old same old, our transfer policy has been absolute bollocks.

 

[Maximin Effort]

And which of those have wingers who are these one dimensional straight line runners? None. There is creativity across all of those teams in wide positions, ours are ****ing bang average. Plus look at the full backs, again miles away from Burn and Krafth. Same old same old, our transfer policy has been absolute bollocks.

On the right, Murphy had assist numbers only second to Salah last season so theres creativity there. Elanga has been crap so far.

Gordon has regressed in his output for some reason but was creating plenty beforehand. Barnes is a great finisher and can put a cross in. I think both our left wingers need that overlapping fullback to help them out, as you are right, they're not the flair technical players that Ginola and Robert etc were for us.

 

[Magnet]

And which of those have wingers who are these one dimensional straight line runners? None. There is creativity across all of those teams in wide positions, ours are ****ing bang average. Plus look at the full backs, again miles away from Burn and Krafth. Same old same old, our transfer policy has been absolute bollocks.

You do realise that you are complaining about third choice players in the positions that you are talking about. Yes, third choice. Are you seriously thinking we should be looking to improve a third choice in a position better than a current England international and a current Swedish international?

I honestly think that other positions have much greater need. Your complaints might have more weight if you were talking about first choice in position players but sounds whiny and entitled when made in relation to third choice position players.

 

[Mowgli311080]

There was a reason that I put Tino & Hall in the image as I agree that with Burn, Krafth and, to a lesser extent, Trippier, we are hindered in being able to threaten from the flanks.
As for the 10, currently Bruno is in the 91st percentile of chance creating midfielders in the league so there is the capability there. Miley has been known to be able to thread some nice balls through defenses when he is allowed to play a little riskier. I think the bigger struggle than "not having a 10" is the off the ball movement to support Woltemade hasn't been good enough (hence Tonali being higher in my example. Ramsey is also decent at it)

If Woltemade drops deep then defenders have to follow him or allow him to turn. If a CB moves out of the defensive line then a midfielder or winger should be moving into that space to create an overload. If the CB's stay then Woltemade can turn and then use his passing range to find a runner. There is too much passivity in our squad, with players just standing still for the ball rather than trying to find space between. KDB wouldn't be able to find a player if they didn't make the run.

The question then becomes: Why are we so passive currently?
I think you are right that we don't have confidence in Burn or Krafth to allow them to be left facing a pacey 1 on 1. They also carry no threat moving forwards so an overload involving those 2 is ignored by the opposition, allowing them to stay tight on our wingers.

I don't think 4-2-3-1 gives us anything all that different from our current set-up as with the players we have available, Bruno moves into the 10 with a double pivot of Miley and Tonali for me. Essentially the midfield triangle has been inverted. We (potentailly) have a player closer to Woltemade but also (potentially) lose the pressure easing fouls in our own half.

3-5-2 is more interesting but we are still going to fall down in the LWB position. I can only see Joelinton over there at the moment which I don't like (assuming Hall isn't playing). Maybe Elanga, but I don't see Barnes or Gordon as being able to play that role.

Personally, I would quite like to do a Glasner and look at the 3-4-3 with Gordon and Bruno as the 10's with Miley & Tonali as the double Pivot (although we still have the same issue at LWB).

In my opinion, we don't have the solutions in the squad until Hall is back and fit enough to start (Trippier is doing a decent enough job at RB but would prefer Tino in there). A new LB who can play RB, such as Joaquin Seys (21) from Club Brugge, should be a priority if we are not going to start playing Ashby, A.Murphy or Shahar.

Would you not try Woltemade at 10 behind Wissa? i think with his touch and movement he could be great at sliding passes through to him or the wingers.

 

[Maximin Effort]

Would you not try Woltemade at 10 behind Wissa? i think with his touch and movement he could be great at sliding passes through to him or the wingers.

A lot of Woltemade's good work comes with his back to goal when dropping in, pulling a CB or 2 with him and flicking the ball to a supporting runner. If he is there as a pure creative force facing goal with the opposition 6 on him rather than getting CB's out of position, I don't know if he'd be as effective.

Not saying we shouldn't try it, I'm just not as convinced as some that the 10 role will suit him

 

[GeordieHalfbreed]

What has been happening is Burn in particular is being asked to push up into support leaving gaping holes as he’s fairly crap at anything in attack including heading, bizarrely. Where we have had success is as you rightly say runners off Nick but this could be done with a second striker, or a 10 near him. In eddies tried and tested 433 he’s very isolated, the team push up ponderously slowly and eventually we lose the ball.

Bit of Roly magic here. Can you call big Nick a **** finisher ahead of Brentford please?

 

[jimileysbaldhead]

Bit of Roly magic here. Can you call big Nick a **** finisher ahead of Brentford please?

 

[Roland Deschain]

Bit of Roly magic here. Can you call big Nick a **** finisher ahead of Brentford please?

****ing bizarre isn’t it? Write this and the daft bastard somehow curls a header into the top corner.

So Tonali can’t shoot for ****, Woltemade will never get a hattrick for the toon, Elanga has zero end product and Gordon is a terminal case of regression.

 

[Schlem Boogerman]

Slot complaining he doesn't have a Murphy in his side to feed Isak

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-to-alexander-isak-strengths-arne-slot-admits

You must log in or register to see images

 

[GodAlmighty]

I’ll debunk this with one word: opposition.

The problem with anything in our formation is Woltemade is the only creative outlet we have, everyone else is a straight line runner. When the opposition set up deeper, as they frequently do, and let us just have the ball there’s sod all we do with it. We have industrious midfielders, counter attacking wingers, which in possession makes us kinda useless. This has been compounded by a complete lack of support from full backs as Burn, Trips and Krafth are more or less plain crap. When you get a lot of posssession you need a bit of magic and our tired formation shunts the spark of Woltemade right up top with no direct support from, say, a 10 and no wide threat from attacking full backs as we should theoretically be able to overload.

What has been happening is Burn in particular is being asked to push up into support leaving gaping holes as he’s fairly crap at anything in attack including heading, bizarrely. Where we have had success is as you rightly say runners off Nick but this could be done with a second striker, or a 10 near him. In eddies tried and tested 433 he’s very isolated, the team push up ponderously slowly and eventually we lose the ball.

You could argue Nick can drop with players off him, but Murphy doesn’t play that way and Gordon has Burn behind him, a huge issue. Joelinton is transitioning into MMA so also losing his way and we’re left with - as usual - industry rather than quality. 3 CBs has, under Howe, been even worse than 433 again because Burn is easy to target, we end up with straight line runners on the touchline in a dreadfully un-creative 541. The solution for me is to get into a 532 or a 4231, anything to give Nick something central to work off. 532 would actually be worth exploring but again our transfer pollicy has restricted us to just buying the same type of players we already have, which in turn makes us incredibly predictable.

That was a ****ing lot more than 1 word

 

[Mick O'Toon]

You must log in or register to see images

 

[jimileysbaldhead]

You must log in or register to see images

 

[GeordieHalfbreed]

Slot complaining he doesn't have a Murphy in his side to feed Isak

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-to-alexander-isak-strengths-arne-slot-admits

You must log in or register to see images

We’ll sell him for £150M