Election 2024

[BobbyD]

As you'll know mate, my views on Palestine highlight the utter hypocrisy of the west. On the one hand criticising Russia for invading and occupying foreign territory and arming Ukraine to fight back. And on the other, supporting an invading and occupying force in Israel and arming them to the teeth, whilst offering them diplomatic immunity and leaving Gazans to rot in hell.

That has everything to do with the wider geopolitics of each region. Russia = bad because the west want to protect Europe. Israel = good because they are fighting against Iranian backed militia and the west want a foothold in the middle east to shape it in their image.

Both are occupying forces in somebody else's territory. You either call it out for what it is, or you don't. The double standards are sickening really.

As for Trump mate, I agree, the bloke is a loon. He's just somebody who makes it up as he goes along and like Sucky, he doesn't do details. Like you say, his attempt at dismantling / delegitimising the free press, shutting down legitimate protest, and going after anybody who criticises him, bears all the hall marks of a dictator who wants to control the whole narrative.

And like you say, with Muskolini owning twitter, pulling the tech strings, and dismantling the parts of federal govt that keep him in check, it's a recipe for a nightmare.

As much as i am pro palestinian and i don't agree with the nato spread east,

Hamas have and actively lobbed missiles into Israel (whilst jewish settlers are nicking land)
Russia has gone full out invasion before ukranian missiles were lobbed into Russia.

 

[BobbyD]

i didn't listen to trumps speech but i read in the news he again re-iterated that he was going to take greenland and the panama canal (although with panama canal it was more than blackrock are buying it).

 

[Milk..]

You said the West was legitimate, it's not, we've been responsible for thousands up on thousands of deaths over the decades. Trump going full tonto has brought it home to us how unprepared we are to defend ourselves, when that enevitable day comes that we finally get bit on the arse for our so called legitimacy.

Actually what I said was I would welcome Russia becoming a legitimate democracy and joining the EU... but yes, I believe most European nations do try to be free and open democracies, obviously with different success rates. Russia pretends to be a democracy but it isn't.

No country on earth is perfect, I happen to believe that Europe is closer to the ideal that I would aim for than Russia- and yes, Europe has flaws, etc.

 

[Milk..]

It's been a wake up call for Europe, that's for sure.

As much as I dislike Trump's tactics, it's not a bad thing that Europe gets its **** in order, especially with regard to defence.

Agree completely. Europe needs to be fully self-sufficient. Even if Trump and JD got assassinated tomorrow and America got someone rational as President.... American politics are such that, they could elect a nutter again and Trump has set up the framework to allow Presidents to take too much power in the future. Europe can't rely on America.

 

[Welshie]

As much as i am pro palestinian and i don't agree with the nato spread east,

Hamas have and actively lobbed missiles into Israel (whilst jewish settlers are nicking land)
Russia has gone full out invasion before ukranian missiles were lobbed into Russia.

I think comparing the Ukraine war and the Israel-Palestine conflict is just lazy (not that you are).

The only comparison if they are both using heavy ordinance, the two conflicts are about different things, in completely different areas, with completely different goals, involving completely different geopolitical matters and with completely different stakes involved.

It happens to not only be many lives on the line, but Ukraine is also a nation littered with nuclear power plants and a war time accident could bring about a environmental disaster that could wreak havoc for the lives of millions upon millions of people, one of the combatants is a global power with thousands of nuclear warheads which it likes to constantly talk about using.

Russia is a steady country right now cos it's being controlled by a dictator but once this old man dies, which he assuredly one day will, that country will be thrown into yet another of it's traditional power vacuum conflicts which has happened so many times throughout Russian history I think people stopped even writing about them anymore.

Personally I don't think anyone on here would like a "Ukrainian-Russian civil war" as soon as their grip on power loosens slightly

No, it's best we support Ukraine and get Russia out of territory they cannot even take with brute force and put a final end to this conflict BEFORE Russia ****s itself AGAIN and we have another mess to clean up.

 

[Milk..]

Please no one tell Trump this, he'll declare one to get his 3rd term.

There are several ways Trump can hold on to power...and it's one thing people have worried about. Some people theorise this might be why he's stirring **** with the neighbours, so that he CAN do something militarily at the end of his term and call off elections... but there are other ways.

Even though the constitution doesn't say this, he could argue that the constitution forbids two "consecutive" terms. Most people would say that's a stretch, but the current Supreme Court is very politicised and could be worse in the future if any more centrists/leftists die.

He could also run as someone else's VP with the intention and campaign decision that that person would resign on day one. A favourable supreme court might allow that as the constitution says he can't run as president more than twice, it doesn't say he can't be president more than twice.

There again, he could just rig an election, he has all the pins in place... North Korea holds referendums from time to time, and always comes out close to 99.99%- Russia it's always 90 something percent ... I believe Saddam Hussein's election he got 100% of the vote- not one single person voted against him. Don't be surprised if Trump does run again if he wins 100% of the vote.

All that said, he's old, I wouldn't be surprised if he put some stooge in power instead of wanting four more years, he got what he want, protection from jail. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if ends up getting assassinated before the next election cycle. Maybe that's all wishful thinking, but I will say, I'm glad Trump isn't a younger man... he's at a point in life where time takes away a lot... I'm just hoping it also takes away his drive.

 

[Welshie]

There are several ways Trump can hold on to power...and it's one thing people have worried about. Some people theorise this might be why he's stirring **** with the neighbours, so that he CAN do something militarily at the end of his term and call off elections... but there are other ways.

Even though the constitution doesn't say this, he could argue that the constitution forbids two "consecutive" terms. Most people would say that's a stretch, but the current Supreme Court is very politicised and could be worse in the future if any more centrists/leftists die.

He could also run as someone else's VP with the intention and campaign decision that that person would resign on day one. A favourable supreme court might allow that as the constitution says he can't run as president more than twice, it doesn't say he can't be president more than twice.

All that said, he's old, I wouldn't be surprised if he put some stooge in power instead of wanting four more years, he got what he want, protection from jail. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if ends up getting assassinated before the next election cycle. Maybe that's all wishful thinking, but I will say, I'm glad Trump isn't a younger man... he's at a point in life where time takes away a lot... I'm just hoping it also takes away his drive.

Does JD Vance know about any of this?

The guy is so obviously after power.

 

[Milk..]

Does JD Vance know about any of this?

The guy is so obviously after power.

He's probably secretly hoping Trump croaks so he can be inherit the kingdom.

 

[brb]

Actually what I said was I would welcome Russia becoming a legitimate democracy and joining the EU... but yes, I believe most European nations do try to be free and open democracies, obviously with different success rates. Russia pretends to be a democracy but it isn't.

No country on earth is perfect, I happen to believe that Europe is closer to the ideal that I would aim for than Russia- and yes, Europe has flaws, etc.

Our freedoms are far more monitored than I would wish, and it's got considerably worse just in my lifetime, everything we do now is monitored at a scary level, somehow I assume this is to protect our democratic freedoms and to keep us safe, but often those same tools are used against us ie the distribution of fines - so democracy is a funny thing, when born into it you accept it, once you've grown up in it, you question it and the changes over the previous decades. So maybe I just question this thing we call democracy and where it is going, because the state seems to have all the controls ie Trump a typical example. Even Starmer proved the controls he had over the Southport riots, not a bad thing, but there is just a shadowy side of it I don't trust.

 

[Milk..]

Our freedoms are far more monitored than I would wish, and it's got considerably worse just in my lifetime, everything we do now is monitored at a scary level, somehow I assume this is to protect our democratic freedoms and to keep us safe, but often those same tools are used against us ie the distribution of fines - so democracy is a funny thing, when born into it you accept it, once you've grown up in it, you question it and the changes over the previous decades. So maybe I just question this thing we call democracy and where it is going, because the state seems to have all the controls ie Trump a typical example. Even Starmer proved the controls he had over the Southport riots, not a bad thing, but there is just a shadowy side of it I don't trust.

And I don't disagree with that. I think things have got steadily worse over time and at some point there needs to be a reset as to what is acceptable (I hope that reset isn't violent, but it might be)- but I would rather live in a democracy with all it's flaws than one that is not... and yes, I do worry that democracy may be over in US and I'll have to decide, do I wait until retirement to move, I've still got a way to go... or do I move. I'm hoping post-Trump things will return to a little bit more normal, even if they're never what they were.

I've half got my eyes on Croatia, New Zealand, and Germany... not serious as I've still got a long way to go.

 

[Welshie]

Our freedoms are far more monitored than I would wish, and it's got considerably worse just in my lifetime, everything we do now is monitored at a scary level, somehow I assume this is to protect our democratic freedoms and to keep us safe, but often those same tools are used against us ie the distribution of fines - so democracy is a funny thing, when born into it you accept it, once you've grown up in it, you question it and the changes over the previous decades. So maybe I just question this thing we call democracy and where it is going, because the state seems to have all the controls ie Trump a typical example. Even Starmer proved the controls he had over the Southport riots, not a bad thing, but there is just a shadowy side of it I don't trust.

I agree with much of this-.

I think that freedoms are too heavily monitored as well.

 

[brb]

And I don't disagree with that. I think things have got steadily worse over time and at some point there needs to be a reset as to what is acceptable (I hope that reset isn't violent, but it might be)- but I would rather live in a democracy with all it's flaws than one that is not... and yes, I do worry that democracy may be over in US and I'll have to decide, do I wait until retirement to move, I've still got a way to go... or do I move. I'm hoping post-Trump things will return to a little bit more normal, even if they're never what they were.

I've half got my eyes on Croatia, New Zealand, and Germany... not serious as I've still got a long way to go.

I don't think I could personally do New Zealand, bit too far from the life I know. I've never been one of these people either that dream of a life in Australia - Germany and Croatia would be alright though, I'm pretty much happy with anywhere in Europe tbph, not too northerly though, I can't be doing with snow - alright if you like that sort of thing, but more the sun for me. I can't ever see me coming over to America again, nice short flights preferable. I think I've grown accustomed to my little islander mentality of life.

 

[FosseFilberto]

Who are we to decide if it's right for Russia or any country to head for our version of democracy and westernisation, it's far from a legitimate model. Our ideals have ****ed up many countries and led them to war, destruction, starvation and mass deaths.

So much so we are currently imploding in on ourselves over the latest war in Ukraine, not to mention Gaza. We are defending and funding sending young men to the front line of Ukraine to defend this so called legitamacy. We are funding for *Gazans to be blitzed. There is nothing in humanity that makes this legitimate.

I'd even say currently Trump and Musk are verging on being bigger dictators than Putin and Xi and the funny part of all this is you actually live in the land of the so called free....Free from protests at Uni and Colleges, as announced by Trump yesterday with threats.

When you are comparing the legitimacy of Russia, I'd first get your own Trumpet over there in order.

How does anyone think half of the **** we do and cause is legitimate. We are all just the puppets of the state regardless of who our leader is, there is nowt legitimate about the way a lot of citizens are treated wherever they live, especially when it comes to poverty and homelessness.

The American Carousel of Progress as funded by Disney...

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*Up the @Citizen Kane league I go...

...you haven't played a big team yet

 

[BobbyD]

Just read that trump has signed a. Executive order (previously) to have the law seek the death penalty every time a cop is murdered.

Wants congress to make it law.

Ironically his maga boys were pardoned for attacking the cops on 6th jan. Usa is going to be messy this year

 

[brb]

Just read that trump has signed a. Executive order (previously) to have the law seek the death penalty every time a cop is murdered.

Wants congress to make it law.

Ironically his maga boys were pardoned for attacking the cops on 6th jan. Usa is going to be messy this year

I was thinking reading your comment, sure the UK use to have the death penalty for killing a police officer, so I googled it, the last case was in 1953 so before my time, the person hanged was Derek Bentley for killing a copper during a burglary, according to AI.

Edit: just read that he didn't even fire the gun but was sentenced under joint enterprise.

 

[Diego]

I was thinking reading your comment, sure the UK use to have the death penalty for killing a police officer, so I googled it, the last case was in 1953 so before my time, the person hanged was Derek Bentley for killing a copper during a burglary, according to AI.

Edit: just read that he didn't even fire the gun but was sentenced under joint enterprise.

There is a film about this called "let him have it"

Plot summary
[edit]
Derek Bentley is an illiterate, epileptic young adult with developmental disabilities who falls into a gang led by a younger teenager named Christopher Craig. During the course of the robbery of a warehouse in Croydon, in which Bentley is encouraged to participate by Craig, the two become trapped by the police. Officers order Craig to put down his gun. Bentley, who by this time has already been arrested, shouts "Let him have it, Chris" – whether he means the phrase literally ("Let him have the gun") or figuratively ("Open fire!") is unclear. Craig fires, killing one officer and wounding another. Because Craig is a minor, he cannot be executed and is given a prison sentence. Meanwhile, Bentley is sentenced to death under the English common law principle of joint enterprise, on the basis that his statement to Craig was an instigation to shoot. Bentley's family makes an effort for clemency which reaches Parliament. However, the Home Secretary (who has the power to commute the death sentence) ultimately declines to intervene. Despite his family's efforts and public support, Bentley is executed in 1953 within a month of being convicted, before Parliament takes any official action.

 

[brb]

There is a film about this called "let him have it"

Plot summary
[edit]
Derek Bentley is an illiterate, epileptic young adult with developmental disabilities who falls into a gang led by a younger teenager named Christopher Craig. During the course of the robbery of a warehouse in Croydon, in which Bentley is encouraged to participate by Craig, the two become trapped by the police. Officers order Craig to put down his gun. Bentley, who by this time has already been arrested, shouts "Let him have it, Chris" – whether he means the phrase literally ("Let him have the gun") or figuratively ("Open fire!") is unclear. Craig fires, killing one officer and wounding another. Because Craig is a minor, he cannot be executed and is given a prison sentence. Meanwhile, Bentley is sentenced to death under the English common law principle of joint enterprise, on the basis that his statement to Craig was an instigation to shoot. Bentley's family makes an effort for clemency which reaches Parliament. However, the Home Secretary (who has the power to commute the death sentence) ultimately declines to intervene. Despite his family's efforts and public support, Bentley is executed in 1953 within a month of being convicted, before Parliament takes any official action.

Oh yeah I remember that line now you mention it. Did the guy out of Dixon of Dock Green play the copper in the film?

 

[Diego]

Oh yeah I remember that line now you mention it. Did the guy out of Dixon of Dock Green play the copper in the film?

Pretty sure he did

 

[brb]

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[Diego]

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That's a lot newer than the one i saw (in black and white)