Off Topic Politics Thread

[Osvaldorama]

We do what Germany is planning and give Ukraine the armaments to hit Russian cities.

Madness. Absolute madness

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

It’s just how things are. We don’t (and shouldn’t) get involved in absolutely every conflict. One persons “right” is another persons “wrong”.

Put it this way;

Imagine if Russia was sending weapons and money to the IRA and destabilising Ireland for years, interfering in elections and generally causing political chaos there.

Imagine if things got so bad there, we felt there was a threat to Britain and that we then had to send British troops back in to stabilise the region. But also imagine instead of an island, Ireland had the rest of Russia and its global military alliances behind it, which made the situation even more tense and complex.

That is me ‘straw manning’ Putin’s position. He sees the west have been destabilising Ukraine in order to push their own agenda in the region.

I’m not saying this justifies his invasion. I’m saying.. it means we need to understand the history accurately. We need to understand his view and not provoke him to do anything even worse.

It seems, to me at least, that the western media is trying to propaganda away all the previous history here and to drum up support for us as the “good guys” and ignore everything else.

If we are going to endanger British lives, it should be done with all of the facts on the table.

We shouldn’t go to war under a cloud of lies like we did in Iraq.

I don't think there's anyone realistically saying that we need or even slightly want to 'go to war' with Russia. That would, indeed, be mental.

 

[Osvaldorama]

I don't think there's anyone realistically saying that we need or even slightly want to 'go to war' with Russia. That would, indeed, be mental.

Loading keeps posting things which will lead us to that

 

[SAINTOSPREY]

I've never seen Os claim the Russian invasion is valid or legitimate. There is a discussion to be had about the causes of the war but right now that's not really the point. The point is as follows.

Russia is fighting a war in Ukraine. At the moment Russia is gradually winning that war. In order to end the war Russia either has to be defeated or convinced to stop fighting. The problem is how to achieve either of those things.

For years the west has been funding Ukraine and sending them weapons but Russia is still gradually winning the war. The major problem for Ukraine, an issue which is continually ignored by those who favour "standing up to Russia", is reported to be a shortage of manpower. While the west is willing to provide weapons and money it's also clear we aren't willing to send troops to fight the Russians. This is the reality that Trump was referring to when he talked about "not having the cards" or whatever it is he said.

European leaders can put together whatever peace plan they want. Trump may even agree to adopt it as a negotiating position. But if the Russians point blank refuse to agree to that peace plan what do you do then?

The Russians are also losing a lot of their best fighters, hence the North Korean troops draughted in to fill the gaps. True Russians surely must be getting a bit concerned about the loss of their loved ones, how long can they put up with it or are they too subservient to react??

 

[......loading......]

Madness. Absolute madness

To arm them properly? Was the accusation not that Biden ****ed up by not giving Ukraine proper weapons?

 

[......loading......]

Loading keeps posting things which will lead us to that

Yeah. I am in charge of the free world.

I think your lot say: Cry more?

 

[......loading......]

Here is an example of Russian thinking. I am posting it because the respondent is an American before Trump switched sides. Look at his confidence Trump would have the balls to make life harder for Russia.

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[Osvaldorama]

sevastopol ukraine

Sevastopol is the main port in the Crimea, which Putin has had in his possession since 2014.

Try again.

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I know that, that’s extremely obvious and you missed the point as usual.

What I am saying is he is trying to create a land bridge to the port for strategic reasons.

This is why he is willing to discuss peace deals now. This is what he wanted, in my opinion. The maps don’t lie

 

[ChilcoSaint]

sevastopol ukraine

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I know that, that’s extremely obvious and you missed the point as usual.

What I am saying is he is trying to create a land bridge to the port for strategic reasons.

This is why he is willing to discuss peace deals now. This is what he wanted, in my opinion. The maps don’t lie

The Kerch Bridge gives him full access to southern Crimea. Why are you so keen to give Putin something else that belongs to a different country?

As for whether he would be satisfied with this, ask anyone in Latvia. Or Estonia. Or Lithuania. Or Poland.

 

[San Tejón]

Yeah, I mean the reason not to be tough on Russia is very clear.

https://x.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1896309646304096624

That was really informative and should be in the mainstream news everywhere.
Perhaps it’s time to rename the USA.
The USSA would be more appropriate - the United Soviet States of America or the United States of Soviet America.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

I’m not one for conspiracy theories, but the more I think about it the more I think Putin has something on Trump. Just a hunch and no research or evidence to suggest it before I get asked to show where I get this from.

I suppose the issue is now I have written it, some will take it as gospel as it was on the internet so must be true.

 

[San Tejón]

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[Puck]

The Russians are also losing a lot of their best fighters, hence the North Korean troops draughted in to fill the gaps. True Russians surely must be getting a bit concerned about the loss of their loved ones, how long can they put up with it or are they too subservient to react??

They don't like their loved ones dying but most Russians get their information about the world from state media and think the war is justified. Based on things I've been told by people who've lived in Russia or spent a lot time there, Russia is also generally a paranoid country - it has no natural borders and has been invaded many times in its history (there's a street in Moscow called something like the Street of the Golden Horde, which is where the *****ls used to turn up and demand tribute) and this stuff gets into the national mindset. I think Russians have a very different, much harder, view of life than westerners.

Now, if Putin had to introduce conscription and the oligarchs in Moscow and St Petersburg saw their children sent off to fight, I think that would make life much harder for him. I've no idea how likely that is, but that's why I don't really think there's an imminent threat to the Baltic states - I just don't think Russia is in a position to fight anyone else at the moment. If Europe is sensible and builds up its defence capabilities then that risk can be managed.

But really, we'd all have been better off if we'd tried to properly rebuild Russia and integrate the country into Europe when the Soviet Union collapsed.

 

[Osvaldorama]

The Kerch Bridge gives him full access to southern Crimea. Why are you so keen to give Putin something else that belongs to a different country?

As for whether he would be satisfied with this, ask anyone in Latvia. Or Estonia. Or Lithuania. Or Poland.

You mean all of those currently sovereign nations who have not been invaded?

I am not saying you’re wrong. Maybe that is his intention. Maybe he is crazy enough that he will continue to expand.

Maybe the western strategy of turning Ukraine into a meat grinder will stop that from happening and we’ve played a blinder. (Not for the Ukranian’s though, and it’s their young men that have all of my sympathy. Fighting and dying for such a pointless war)
It’s a grim strategy but it’s plausible that’s what the intention has been.

I still don’t see any reason to put British troops on the ground, or give Ukraine weapons that can target Russia. Both of those things are way, way too far. To advocate for these things is letting emotions cloud rational judgement

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

They don't like their loved ones dying but most Russians get their information about the world from state media and think the war is justified. Based on things I've been told by people who've lived in Russia or spent a lot time there, Russia is also generally a paranoid country - it has no natural borders and has been invaded many times in its history (there's a street in Moscow called something like the Street of the Golden Horde, which is where the *****ls used to turn up and demand tribute) and this stuff gets into the national mindset. I think Russians have a very different, much harder, view of life than westerners.

Now, if Putin had to introduce conscription and the oligarchs in Moscow and St Petersburg saw their children sent off to fight, I think that would make life much harder for him. I've no idea how likely that is, but that's why I don't really think there's an imminent threat to the Baltic states - I just don't think Russia is in a position to fight anyone else at the moment. If Europe is sensible and builds up its defence capabilities then that risk can be managed.

But really, we'd all have been better off if we'd tried to properly rebuild Russia and integrate the country into Europe when the Soviet Union collapsed.

Agreed.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

You mean all of those currently sovereign nations who have not been invaded?

I am not saying you’re wrong. Maybe that is his intention. Maybe he is crazy enough that he will continue to expand.

Maybe the western strategy of turning Ukraine into a meat grinder will stop that from happening and we’ve played a blinder. (Not for the Ukranian’s though, and it’s their young men that have all of my sympathy. Fighting and dying for such a pointless war)
It’s a grim strategy but it’s plausible that’s what the intention has been.

I still don’t see any reason to put British troops on the ground, or give Ukraine weapons that can target Russia. Both of those things are way, way too far. To advocate for these things is letting emotions cloud rational judgement

Those sovereign nations who have not been invaded, because they're part of NATO. Which is kind of the point. That's what NATO was for (to stop Russian expansionism from taking hold), and why Ukraine wanted to be part of NATO - so that exactly what has happened wouldn't happen.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Those sovereign nations who have not been invaded, because they're part of NATO. Which is kind of the point. That's what NATO was for (to stop Russian expansionism from taking hold), and why Ukraine wanted to be part of NATO - so that exactly what has happened wouldn't happen.

Yes. Exactly.

Ukraine are not part of NATO.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Yes. Exactly.

Ukraine are not part of NATO.

Okay, so what do you think might happen if the US pulls out of NATO, as it's threatened to do.

 

[StJabbo1]

Georgia, Moldova, Bosnia and Herzegovina are thought to be high on Putin's list. There's plenty of evidence of Russian interference in recent elections. As I posted previously I have friends in Kazakhstan with interests in Georgia, they are extremely concerned.

 

[......loading......]

Georgia, Moldova, Bosnia and Herzegovina are thought to be high on Putin's list. There's plenty of evidence of Russian interference in recent elections. As I posted previously I have friends in Kazakhstan with interests in Georgia, they are extremely concerned.

I have friends in Georgia and Ukraine and they are angry at the USA. I also have an old friend who is a Kazakh. She said growing up everything was known by Russia. You whispered in the streets. They don’t ever want to go back.