Off Topic Politics Thread

Taken away much of our control over immigration policy, stopping deportations of foreign criminals, giving prisoners the right to vote, weakening the police’s ability to store data about criminals

Just off the top of my head

 

I don’t really know what you mean by this.

I do see what’s concerning people, I just disagree with them & their causes. I don’t know why you assume I don’t understand their view points?

 

Given that both the Nazis and the Republican Fascist party spearheaded their economic programs with tariffs and protectionism, perhaps it's not the opposite. They both pushed military spending (Nazis with an obvious reason that we hope isn't shared by Trump!). Where they differ is the size of the state, both created large beaurocracies to control aspects of society.

Trump does use a lot of the Goebbels playbook though - 'you are fake news', 'that is a nasty question', banning AP and Reuters etc. The pushing the big lie continuously, never backing down is straight out of Hitler's approach too.

 

https://x.com/dineshdsouza/status/1895611116962840722?s=46

For anyone interested, Elon musk has just done a 3 hour chat with Joe rogan discussing USAID, misallocation of taxpayer money, NGOs etc

Very interesting to hear straight from him

 

Well, it's time you read it then - (I mean the convention), then read the Human rights act 1988. If you want to know about Police's ability to store data, read both versions of the Data Protection Act and PACE. It's a lot I'm afraid!

It hasn't done most of those. What it has done is prevented the deportation of foreign criminals where they would face persecution or death in their home country. It's not ECHR that limits Police in storing data of non-convicted people though there is relevant case law.

Prisoner voting is an interesting one because the case that caused an issue in the UK was due to the judgement going beyond the scope of the drafting of the legislation within ECHR. It didn't take away control in the UK as evidenced by the changing of the law in the UK in 2017 that allows prisoners released on License to vote.

 

Knowing the USA, there is going to be huge misallocation of taxpayer money, but put Musk in charge? I guess we find out for sure (after a few minor new space x contracts) with the FAA Verizon contract.

 

You are of course right, but because the law is written as a proof of intent, it's not just a sub category of speech. You can say a sentence with the same words, but different intent - it is the intent that is prohibited.

I like how our law works here and yes you are right about it.

 

Trump using the World War III scenario, if there was to be one, who exactly does he think the main aggressors would be? Who wouuld be on his side?

 

I think it’s an absolutely fantastic thing, he’s already uncovered almost $100bil in waste. Imagine what that could do for the country. There is literally no one better in the world than musk to lead this team.

We URGENTLY need the same sort of thing here. For too long the political class have treated the taxpayers as cows to be milked. The “service” we receive for our tax money is absolutely appalling.

What Elon is doing with DOGE should be something the entire west copies imo.

 

I haven't been tracking this closely, but it looks like they've identified a total of $2bn of cuts. Zero fraud, zero waste. It takes a lot more work to identify the waste, you need to understand the systems properly and that takes time, it's not Musk's MO. If you said Steve Ballmer or Bill Gates were doing it, I would have a bit more respect. Musk isn't known for efficiency or quality systems at all. So far, DOGE seems to have focused on big headlines of 'we found a spurious $80bn contract' that turns out to be an $80m contract that was never signed anyway.

When you work in the public sector in the UK, waste per se isn't the problem generally (though I'm sure others will have more and different experience to me). I remember an early contract I did with the NHS about 25 years ago that has stuck in my mind. They had an idea for the system, we did the process engineering, designed a system and proposed it. It went through various levels of management within the trust, got changed, changed, added to and reimagined. We redid the process engineering, redesigned the system, they changed it again and went back to basics, we did due diligence and reverted to initial plan, got the go ahead, built the system and then the trust decided to make another change. We redesigned and the rebuilt the system before eventually deploying more or less the same system we proposed in the first place. Initial contract was for £25m, they ended up paying £122m due to faffing around. All of these people were passionate, largely effective and dedicated to healthcare at an efficient cost. Streamlining decision making, creating decision frameworks maybe. I'm honestly not sure how to solve this one!

I've long since moved on from this career, but I still have friends that work in consulting and many public sector contracts follow the same pattern. The politicians I dealt with were on the whole there to make good decisions for the people and were public servants. I did have the misfortune of dealing with Michael Gove once though. Yuck. Even worse, a colleague had to deal with Jacob Rees Mogg for 2 whole years.

I don't completely disagree with you on service, but if we look at healthcare as an example, we do pretty well. It's far from perfect, but look up what an ambulance costs in the USA and the equivalent cost in the UK. It's not a case of being milked by the political class - with exceptions - Jacob Rees Mogg, Nigel Farage...

 

Wow you got it. I'm not sure why people don't quite understand this so easily. Its not being on the side of Putin or against anyone. Its as simple as "America First" I think he may have mentioned that a few times? Its not allied with anyone or against anyone. Just simply "America first."

And I am not pro or anti Trump or his stance there. tbh I am pretty much "UK first" however that is not the direction of travel this side of the Atlantic.

 

You’re putting in the legwork on the detail here, but I remember reading fact check a few times when the previous government blamed ECHR for problems that were actually caused by its own inactions not the legislation

However, I also recall an article by Matthew Syed, giving a balanced view and advocating an international review of ECHR given the changed circumstances in the world
(Can’t get to it but it’s on Muckrack)


Asylum treaties are the greatest threat to the West. Rip them up now
4 months ago|
By Matthew Syed Verified
|The Times VerifiedEvery time I read about a child killed in the Channel, as again last week, I can’t help myself. I wonder about those final moments: the panic, the realisation that the adults are either not willing or not able to help, perhaps a sense of confusion that life — that all too brief illumination of existence — has proved so cruel. I can’t help imagining my own children dying similarly harrowing deaths. But now I cannot suppress a second feeling

 

The problem is it’s America First, No one Second

Mankind has generally ‘succeeded’ through cooperation not selfishness

We need a slightly broader view for UK First

It’s the difference between Trumps negotiation being, if I can screw you I will screw you and proper negotiation being trying to find a solution where I’m happy, you’re happy

Otherwise, you will find your chickens coming home to roost

Dealing with Trumps and Putins complicates this a lot though as they’re trying to screw you

 

“I haven’t been tracking this closely, but…”

Do you not see how bad this sentence is? Shows you’re not actually interested in an honest discussion about this stuff. Just want to push your own agenda.

Also this sentence.. “Musk isn't known for efficiency or quality systems at all”.. are you being serious? You are actually saying that sincerely?

 

Yeah. Successful, lasting negotiation tends to be win/win scenarios. People like Trump don’t get that.

 

Matthew Syed is not giving a balanced view at all. He’s giving a pro government, pro state lefty view as that is his strong political bias

 

By saying that you’re essentially saying you have never read any of Matthew Syed’s writing. Despite standing for Labour in the early 2000s he is anything but a lefty. As you’d know if you actually read him.

You really shouldn’t just fling out statements if you don’t actually know about something or someone. It completely undermines any credibility. It’s fine to say “I’ve not read much of his stuff so I can’t comment”.

 

This is life unfortunately. Who are the police? (not meaning actual police) is everywhere. This is why the world is fed this narrative that the Russians, Iranians and the North Koreans are the champions of the cyberwar.

Of course the western world is gonna see their enemies actions as war and ignore themselves doing the same. They aren't going to police themselves nor see what they do as being bad like their opponents. So Russia are interfering while the US doing the same is them trying to make the world better.

You can also expand this to the current "not all cultures are equal" argument where of course if you see your own culture as being the "benchmark" then anything else is gonna be bad. What we see as progress might be seen as regress by others and vice versa. You are always policing based on some benchmark that you see as "normal."

You could simplify it down to "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" were is the US the Barbie or Latino very slim with long flowing hair woman is the "beautiful" whereas a tribe in "example so add your own country" may see a "larger" woman with ample everything and short cropped hair as being the beautiful.

Neither of these see the others beautiful as that in fact the polar opposite and the other's beautiful to them is ugly.

Normal is only normal to you! Not normal is based on not your normal!

My Wife's heritage is Cape Verdian via Portugal and when she and her family make their favourite foods some of it to me is slop. I can barely get myself to eat it. Of course I don't want to offend so I will force myself through it but. yuck. They love it, go back for seconds.

Similarly she can't stand pie and chips or things like that and a steak that is not at minimum overcooked will be refused! Any pink in any meat will get you a "that is disgusting" look and while my wife has of course learnt that we Brits do tend to be naturally diplomatic........her parents who were born in Cape Verde are direct, not tactful at all and will push the plate back and tell you to cook it properly. lol

 

In your opinion of course. Others will differ, I haven't a clue, I can't compete at your level of debate.

 

I'm not prying, but just wondering what you do for a job? Feel free not to answer, it's your privacy.

I don't want to push an agenda. I very rarely reply to things and even then it's when I'm confident they are spurious or I am really interested. DOGE worried me and still does, but it's not something I read lots and lots on, but I am a huge nerd! Given you said that there were over $100bn, I may have kept abreast a little more, but I am open to being corrected

I'm being completely serious on Musk. Please do look into his background, look at the development of Space X as an example. I still do advisory work in tech and he has a well earned reputation. That said, I can't back it up with fact, just anecdotes from friends, so your opinion may naturally differ from mine.