Transfer Rumours To sack or not to sack?

[humanbeingincroydon]

As I've said elsewhere, unless we sign Rodri or build a time-machine and kidnap either Busquets or Dembele from 10 years ago, this whole system will continue to fail.

We don't have a single press-resistant midfielder.

This is the part which I don't get: Bissouma has shown he can be press resistant, but he's routinely showed that being press resistant is not particularly useful to the team if it's paired with poor decision making or habitual lapses in concentration

Going back to my assessment of Terzic a few posts ago, the obvious thing about his systems is Bissouma just wouldn't be the DM in the system and would be in one of the No8 slots - which is still an improvement on Maddison's prospects, as Terzic doesn't play with a No10 in his system

 

[Citizen Kane.]

This is the part which I don't get: Bissouma has shown he can be press resistant, but he's routinely showed that being press resistant is not particularly useful to the team if it's paired with poor decision making or habitual lapses in concentration

Going back to my assessment of Terzic a few posts ago, the obvious thing about his systems is Bissouma just wouldn't be the DM in the system and would be in one of the No8 slots - which is still an improvement on Maddison's prospects, as Terzic doesn't play with a No10 in his system

Bissouma isn't as press resistant as many think he is. He needs a CM partner alongside him who is highly comfortable in possession. He had that at Brighton with various combinations of Llalalalalana, Propper and Gross. He only has that here if Bentancur is available, which he rarely is. And when he is, Ange rarely plays them together, seemingly accepting the 'either/or' attitude Conte had towards them.

Ultimately the benchmark for a press resistant midfielder is Rodri, and Bissouma is miles off that standard.

Archie Gray is probably the long term answer to this dilemma, but is he ready?

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Bissouma isn't as press resistant as many think he is. He needs a CM partner alongside him who is highly comfortable in possession. He had that at Brighton with various combinations of Llalalalalana, Propper and Gross. He only has that here if Bentancur is available, which he rarely is. And when he is, Ange rarely plays them together, seemingly accepting the 'either/or' attitude Conte had towards them.

Ultimately the benchmark for a press resistant midfielder is Rodri, and Bissouma is miles off that standard.

Archie Gray is probably the long term answer to this dilemma, but is he ready?

This is the thing about press resistance: Ndombele was our most press-resistant player for a worrying amount of time - but since he couldn't run ten yards without needing to stop for a breather, the press resistance he offered was rendered pretty goddamn useless

Also has to be said that Bentancur used to be press resistant, as he used to be able to jink around pressing players and move the ball forward, until his ankles became a target for bog standard defenders with a chip on their shoulder

 

[Roo]

I’ve gone for “not to sack”.

We sit 14th and I see no improvement whatsoever. I also don’t think he’s got what it takes. However, as has been discussed over and over, we’ll be here again in 18 months if we do.
Levy decided to hire him so it’s on him now to ensure Ange can deliver. So I want us to try something different by properly backing him with players he needs, and over a decent enough period of time to embed things. Im sick of us repeating the same process where we bring someone in, start to sell unwanted players and add a few to keep the new manager happy, then sack the manager. - All before ever really seeing anything through, and providing the man hired to do the job with the tools he needs. It’s boring, predictable, and hasn’t worked.
Yes, Ange has tonnes of flaws (all managers have them) but this rinse/repeat process has to end at some point.
If we bring in another manager, we’ll end up seeing several players sold (because they aren’t right for the new guy),and some new ones added, only to be in the exact same position where the job isn’t completed. And you can bet that the next manager will be under similar scrutiny for similar and/or different reasons as well.

I know it sounds like a “self sabotage” attitude, but something has to change.
Levy must have known what Ange’s style of football was like before hiring him, and the injury risks there were to players based on the style. So therefore he needs to ensure the squad is capable of dealing with that, which currently it’s not. One would assume before hiring, Levy had thought about the potential £££ required to bring this realisation to life? If he hasn’t, he couldn’t have picked a worse manager, as this venture is potentially a costly one!
Either way, it’s on Levy, who is the decision maker who I don’t want being able to hide behind the manager/coach any more. Sick of it.

 

[KingHotspur]

I’ve gone for “not to sack”.

We sit 14th and I see no improvement whatsoever. I also don’t think he’s got what it takes. However, as has been discussed over and over, we’ll be here again in 18 months if we do.
Levy decided to hire him so it’s on him now to ensure Ange can deliver. So I want us to try something different by properly backing him with players he needs, and over a decent enough period of time to embed things. Im sick of us repeating the same process where we bring someone in, start to sell unwanted players and add a few to keep the new manager happy, then sack the manager. - All before ever really seeing anything through, and providing the man hired to do the job with the tools he needs. It’s boring, predictable, and hasn’t worked.
Yes, Ange has tonnes of flaws (all managers have them) but this rinse/repeat process has to end at some point.
If we bring in another manager, we’ll end up seeing several players sold (because they aren’t right for the new guy),and some new ones added, only to be in the exact same position where the job isn’t completed. And you can bet that the next manager will be under similar scrutiny for similar and/or different reasons as well.

I know it sounds like a “self sabotage” attitude, but something has to change.
Levy must have known what Ange’s style of football was like before hiring him, and the injury risks there were to players based on the style. So therefore he needs to ensure the squad is capable of dealing with that, which currently it’s not. One would assume before hiring, Levy had thought about the potential £££ required to bring this realisation to life? If he hasn’t, he couldn’t have picked a worse manager, as this venture is potentially a costly one!
Either way, it’s on Levy, who is the decision maker who I don’t want being able to hide behind the manager/coach any more. Sick of it.

Levy has previous for appointing the wrong managers and then not giving them what they need. As much as I don’t rate Ange, like you say it’s going to be on to the next fallguy if he is sacked and rinse and repeat.

I do think a better manager could get Spurs higher up the table and playing a more sensible style of football though. Like I said before, Ange isn’t the problem but he’s a problem

 

[remembercolinlee]

When I die, I want a Spurs player to lower me into my grave so they can let me down one last time.

 

[Dier Hard]

I’ve gone for “not to sack”.

We sit 14th and I see no improvement whatsoever. I also don’t think he’s got what it takes. However, as has been discussed over and over, we’ll be here again in 18 months if we do.
Levy decided to hire him so it’s on him now to ensure Ange can deliver. So I want us to try something different by properly backing him with players he needs, and over a decent enough period of time to embed things. Im sick of us repeating the same process where we bring someone in, start to sell unwanted players and add a few to keep the new manager happy, then sack the manager. - All before ever really seeing anything through, and providing the man hired to do the job with the tools he needs. It’s boring, predictable, and hasn’t worked.
Yes, Ange has tonnes of flaws (all managers have them) but this rinse/repeat process has to end at some point.
If we bring in another manager, we’ll end up seeing several players sold (because they aren’t right for the new guy),and some new ones added, only to be in the exact same position where the job isn’t completed. And you can bet that the next manager will be under similar scrutiny for similar and/or different reasons as well.

I know it sounds like a “self sabotage” attitude, but something has to change.
Levy must have known what Ange’s style of football was like before hiring him, and the injury risks there were to players based on the style. So therefore he needs to ensure the squad is capable of dealing with that, which currently it’s not. One would assume before hiring, Levy had thought about the potential £££ required to bring this realisation to life? If he hasn’t, he couldn’t have picked a worse manager, as this venture is potentially a costly one!
Either way, it’s on Levy, who is the decision maker who I don’t want being able to hide behind the manager/coach any more. Sick of it.

This was generally the view I’ve had for a while, in that it’s about time the board double down on a manager but the more I think about it the more it’s just not gonna happen and it won’t change either, fans can protest, call Levy a **** and chant all anti-Levy songs they want but it makes not one bit of difference. He and the board are here until they don’t wanna be, not until we don’t them.

Even right now, we’re all saying Ange needs help, Ange has even publicly asked for help, Ali Gold reports the board are “fully backing him”, yet over two weeks into the Jan window all he’s been given is a backup keeper. They had weeks to prepare for this window, knowing full well the mess we were in and there’s been almost zero action. Even in the summer, last season wasn’t anywhere near perfect but I felt there were building blocks put in place and having European football again meant we should’ve added a good few high calibre players to help kick on as well as being able to handle the demands yet all we got was one “decent” player and a bunch of teenagers.

So for those reasons, the only way I see us steadily improving under this regime is hiring and firing managers until we stumble upon another Jol, Redknapp or Pochettino who proves to be the right fit and elevate us beyond our station over a prolonged period of time, Ange unfortunately is almost doing the opposite of such.

 

[Roo]

Levy has previous for appointing the wrong managers and then not giving them what they need. As much as I don’t rate Ange, like you say it’s going to be on to the next fallguy if he is sacked and rinse and repeat.

I do think a better manager could get Spurs higher up the table and playing a more sensible style of football though. Like I said before, Ange isn’t the problem but he’s a problem

completely agree. But I refer back to the part about the new guy getting rid of some of Ange’s players, bringing in some new ones, and us being in the exact same situation. the honeymoon phase won’t last, sadly.

 

[BinghamSpur]

This was generally the view I’ve had for a while, in that it’s about time the board double down on a manager but the more I think about it the more it’s just not gonna happen and it won’t change either, fans can protest, call Levy a **** and chant all anti-Levy songs they want but it makes not one bit of difference. He and the board are here until they don’t wanna be, not until we don’t them.

Even right now, we’re all saying Ange needs help, Ange has even publicly asked for help, Ali Gold reports the board are “fully backing him”, yet over two weeks into the Jan window all he’s been given is a backup keeper. They had weeks to prepare for this window, knowing full well the mess we were in and there’s been almost zero action. Even in the summer, last season wasn’t anywhere near perfect but I felt there were building blocks put in place and having European football again meant we should’ve added a good few high calibre players to help kick on as well as being able to handle the demands yet all we got was one “decent” player and a bunch of teenagers.

So for those reasons, the only way I see us steadily improving under this regime is hiring and firing managers until we stumble upon another Jol, Redknapp or Pochettino who proves to be the right fit and elevate us beyond our station over a prolonged period of time, Ange unfortunately is almost doing the opposite of such.

It's incredibly depressing to read this but I'm more and more coming to the conclusion you are correct.

As news comes in of further injuries for Sunday it has made my Friday afternoon all the more darker ...

 

[Dier Hard]

@Roo just went to our old favourite stomping ground, feels like it’s been a good year or so since I’ve done it, not much by way of transfers these days, though one on the 31st Dec did say a young keeper who can play out from the back would be joining so that proved almost spot on (they claimed he was a full international but Kinsky’s only capped at u21), though I did come across this piece:

As for the coaches something I've heard and posted bts is that they aren't overly happy with things. They are basically told what they have to achieve, ie, this is what the end result must be, and then Ange walks off and they are left to get on with it. They believe they've had to abandon the fundamentals to a large degree, and are very uncertain how to get to the point Ange wants because he's not telling them how to.

 

[Dier Hard]

It's incredibly depressing to read this but I'm more and more coming to the conclusion you are correct.

As news comes in of further injuries for Sunday it has made my Friday afternoon all the more darker ...

It’s only Werner and Johnson injured isn’t it?

Just get a traffic cone and stick it on the back post and you’ve basically got Johnson covered. Then just hire a clown if you want Werner cover.

 

[Roo]

This was generally the view I’ve had for a while, in that it’s about time the board double down on a manager but the more I think about it the more it’s just not gonna happen and it won’t change either, fans can protest, call Levy a **** and chant all anti-Levy songs they want but it makes not one bit of difference. He and the board are here until they don’t wanna be, not until we don’t them.

Even right now, we’re all saying Ange needs help, Ange has even publicly asked for help, Ali Gold reports the board are “fully backing him”, yet over two weeks into the Jan window all he’s been given is a backup keeper. They had weeks to prepare for this window, knowing full well the mess we were in and there’s been almost zero action. Even in the summer, last season wasn’t anywhere near perfect but I felt there were building blocks put in place and having European football again meant we should’ve added a good few high calibre players to help kick on as well as being able to handle the demands yet all we got was one “decent” player and a bunch of teenagers.

So for those reasons, the only way I see us steadily improving under this regime is hiring and firing managers until we stumble upon another Jol, Redknapp or Pochettino who proves to be the right fit and elevate us beyond our station over a prolonged period of time, Ange unfortunately is almost doing the opposite of such.

Sadly, all of this is true, too.
With all of this in mind, you have to start wondering at this point whether bringing Poch back is our only answer.
I know people will say about the results towards the end, or the over emotional side to his character, or signing N’dombele, but the last 6 years have been chaotic. He’s proven he can work within the parameters and deliver. Maybe, after all, he is the right person for this club and we’ve made a massive mistake not listening to him the first time.

I dunno. I’m totally at a loss these days.

 

[Roo]

@Roo just went to our old favourite stomping ground, feels like it’s been a good year or so since I’ve done it, not much by way of transfers these days, though one on the 31st Dec did say a young keeper who can play out from the back would be joining so that proved almost spot on (they claimed he was a full international but Kinsky’s only capped at u21), though I did come across this piece:

As for the coaches something I've heard and posted bts is that they aren't overly happy with things. They are basically told what they have to achieve, ie, this is what the end result must be, and then Ange walks off and they are left to get on with it. They believe they've had to abandon the fundamentals to a large degree, and are very uncertain how to get to the point Ange wants because he's not telling them how to.

Haha, don’t put yourself through it! None of us need the added bullshit on top of what is already quite a depressing time to be a fan.


What does that training stuff even mean? I mean I can hardly talk, but why are these “ITK” comments always so hard to decipher?

 

[Dier Hard]

Haha, don’t put yourself through it! None of us need the added bullshit on top of what is already quite a depressing time to be a fan.


What does that training stuff even mean? I mean I can hardly talk, but why are these “ITK” comments always so hard to decipher?

Guess it’s open for interpretation.

I know that not long after Ange joined journalists mentioned how he delegates a lot of the drills to the coaching staff.

Maybe there’s not enough direction or tactical planning to what he’s asking them to do? Hence the lack of fundamental part of the comment?

I dunno but if coaches feel there’s something not right and the way we’ve played post-November 2023 often looking quite amateurish with the occasional good result in between, it could just be that there isn’t a real game plan going on other than “attack, attack, attack”… which of late, we barely even seem to do anyway.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Guess it’s open for interpretation.

I know that not long after Ange joined journalists mentioned how he delegates a lot of the drills to the coaching staff.

Maybe there’s not enough direction or tactical planning to what he’s asking them to do? Hence the lack of fundamental part of the comment?

I dunno but if coaches feel there’s something not right and the way we’ve played post-November 2023 often looking quite amateurish with the occasional good result in between, it could just be that there isn’t a real game plan going on other than “attack, attack, attack”… which of late, we barely even seem to do anyway.

I don't believe any of this ITK bullshit, but we simply don't have the legs to play Angeball at the moment.
We beat Liverpool by being more pragmatic.

 

[paulthewire]

I've gone no as I can't see any realistic prospect to replace him before the summer, although Sean Dyche is now available.....

Go wash your mouth out

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

@Roo just went to our old favourite stomping ground, feels like it’s been a good year or so since I’ve done it, not much by way of transfers these days, though one on the 31st Dec did say a young keeper who can play out from the back would be joining so that proved almost spot on (they claimed he was a full international but Kinsky’s only capped at u21), though I did come across this piece:

As for the coaches something I've heard and posted bts is that they aren't overly happy with things. They are basically told what they have to achieve, ie, this is what the end result must be, and then Ange walks off and they are left to get on with it. They believe they've had to abandon the fundamentals to a large degree, and are very uncertain how to get to the point Ange wants because he's not telling them how to.

The part about Ange leaving the coaches to get on with it has a toe or two in fact, as it was widely reported when he joined that's exactly what he did at his previous clubs

What it ignores is that this isn't entirely out of the ordinary for managers, the most obvious example being Ralf Rangnick as that's exactly the reason why he's the fountainhead for the last 15-20 years of high profile German coaches entirely because he gave coaches an outline of what is needed and left them to get on with it

 

[Billy The Spur]

I would say not to sack, purely because we have a clueless Chairman running the show who can not be trusted to appoint anybody better, a fine businessman maybe, but the wrong priorities when it comes to football.

Levy blunders from one farce to the next, he doesn`t know his aris from his elbow when it comes to building a winning formula. A new manager may or may not improve results, but we should give Ange the season and see where we end up when some players come back from injury, I think the players are still with him.

 

[KingHotspur]

I would say not to sack, purely because we have a clueless Chairman running the show who can not be trusted to appoint anybody better, a fine businessman maybe, but the wrong priorities when it comes to football.

Levy blunders from one farce to the next, he doesn`t know his aris from his elbow when it comes to building a winning formula. A new manager may or may not improve results, but we should give Ange the season and see where we end up when some players come back from injury, I think the players are still with him.

How bad do results have to get before you turn on the manager instead of just blaming the chairman?

 

[Dier Hard]

How bad do results have to get before you turn on the manager instead of just blaming the chairman?

If we get any worse we get relegated so I reckon that's gotta be the last straw, lol.

Thing is, if people are backing Ange in sort of defiance/ hate for Levy, it's probably counter-productive to Spurs' fortunes.

Though if people are backing Ange because they believe he can fix the mess he's partly responsible for then fair enough, hopefully they see something I currently don't.