Off Topic Politics Thread

[Osvaldorama]

I think you are missing the point.

It isn’t a socialist value to want to help those on poorer incomes. It is being human.

It doesn’t stop them from wanting more and to progress, but rather helps them do it. Raise the standard of living for all.

I have not once said at the expense of those that have more though.

Cut out the waste and the corruption (poor and wealthy) and raise the standard of living for the whole country.

On the subject of “health tourists “ can someone (not necessarily Os) explain this to me? My grandkids only got their UK passport aged 2 and 4 and I know the older one had to visit the doctor before he had one one and had to claim from his US travel insurance.

Edit : Thankfully though he had his mother with him so didn’t need a translator to translate from US English to Proper English

Do you agree that there is a point where it goes too far?

Is there a point, for you, where the British taxpayers are being asked to pay for too many things that they shouldn’t be paying for?

Or do you see the British taxpayers as cattle to be milked?

Genuinely interested. As to me it seems like the British government can find a magic money tree to help absolutely everyone except British taxpayers

 

[Osvaldorama]

Hope this helps, extracts from https://keepournhspublic.com/health-tourism-fact-vs-fiction/
"FICTION: “Health Tourism” is a problem for the NHS
In September this year Matt Hancock announced an additional £1m funding to expand the team of experts responsible for recovering millions of pounds in costs for treating overseas visitors in the NHS.

Since the law changed in 2015 many people are no longer deemed ‘ordinarily resident’ in the UK and are charged for all NHS care at 150% of cost price except for emergency care. Since 2017 the law has ben tightened further, putting pressure on Trusts to collect money from those deemed as ‘non-resident’.

FACT: Government policy on this has developed as part of their “hostile environment”
Government policy on charging upfront for treatment has rendered 600,000 people, including 120,000 children, ineligible for free NHS care. This has put many lives at risk and caused great hardship.

The policy has been opposed by almost all professional bodies representing doctors and midwives, by the health unions and now by the Labour Party which is committed to scrap the charges.

‘Health tourism’ refers to the idea that people travel deliberately to the UK to seek free treatment for a pre-existing condition.

The Government’s own estimate puts the cost of deliberate misuse of the NHS by overseas visitors at £300m at most – equating to roughly 0.3% of the NHS budget. But the majority of this is attributed to British migrants that live overseas and return to the UK to use the NHS.

The £300m figure includes the use of primary care and A&E services and does not take into account an assessment of the likelihood of the people charged being able to pay the bill.

The (then) Government’s often used refrain “the NHS is a national, not an international, health service” mobilises the myth of ‘health tourism’ to justify a policy that is based on unreliable evidence, causes harm and leads to discrimination."

All of this is propaganda.

We don’t even know how many people are in England.

The water board and Tesco estimate that there are 650k-1mil extra residents just in London.

The fact you believe we are accounting for all of the necessary costs is hilarious

 

[StJabbo1]

All of this is propaganda.

We don’t even know how many people are in England.

The water board and Tesco estimate that there are 650k-1mil extra residents in London.

The fact you believe we are accounting for all of the necessary costs is hilarious

You missed or ignored my post "Have to say much more could be done to make those aren't eligible for free treatment pay." I'll add it will take years to repair the damage done by the tories to public services across the board.

 

[StJabbo1]

All of this is propaganda.

We don’t even know how many people are in England.

The water board and Tesco estimate that there are 650k-1mil extra residents just in London.

The fact you believe we are accounting for all of the necessary costs is hilarious

Can't find any reference to the extra residents in London? Could it be a cut and paste from Musk, Lowe, Farage or similar misinformationalists.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Can't find any reference to the extra residents in London? Could it be a cut and paste from Musk, Lowe, Farage or similar misinformationalists.

It’s true but I can’t be arsed to find the source.

However, even if it’s not true and we take the official numbers as gospel;

the insane population explosion in the last few decades means that the infrastructure is simply unable to cope.

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You can’t win this one. I’ve literally worked in hospitals all across the country and seen it all first hand.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

I have just googled it and it is true you do not need proof of residency to register with a doctor. But there does lie a problem if you are an illegal. Once you register your name/adress etc is in the system. Something that an illegal immigrant etc probably doesn't want. As previously mentioned a number of times, asylum seekers aren't 'illegals' as they are in there system and seeking to be UK citizens.

And to answer your other question, no I don't think the UK tax payer should be milked. I also think that the biggest waste of tax payers money is inefficiency and not 'illegals' or asylum seekers.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

Practical solutions to ongoing problems.

Missed appoints are charged in the Netherlands. Reminders for all appoints are sent by email and/or text message.

Doctors: Typically €15 for a 15 minute appointment increasing pro rata. Charges for missed procedures at cost. But not universally applied and contentious due to a number of reasons including cost and time

Dentist: "If you cancel within 24 hours in advance or fail to keep appointments without notice, we are unfortunately forced to charge for the reserved time and/or the agreed treatment. The health insurance company will not reimburse these costs."

Hospital: "If you need to cancel your appointment, you must do so at least 24 hours in advance. If you don't cancel your appointment in time, you will be charged a no-show fee of €45.00 per outpatient appointment. This fee is set by the Dutch Healthcare Authority and is not covered by your health insurance policy."

Not that simple though is it?
Say you’re a low wage earner with a family and you wake up on the day of an appt with COVID/Flu symptoms?

You could give this response to appeal a charge, but then it becomes the easy fix get out, as there’s no evidence either way

 

[StJabbo1]

It’s true but I can’t be arsed to find the source.

However, even if it’s not true and we take the official numbers as gospel;

the insane population explosion in the last few decades means that the infrastructure is simply unable to cope.

You must log in or register to see images

You can’t win this one. I’ve literally worked in hospitals all across the country and seen it all first hand.

No surrender! It's not just the population but years of underinvestment in personnel and infrastructure as well you know. Come up with some real solutions your alledged experience should be able to provide instead of shrill hysterical unsubstantiated C&P one liners.

 

[StJabbo1]

Not that simple though is it?
Say you’re a low wage earner with a family and you wake up on the day of an appt with COVID/Flu symptoms?

You could give this response to appeal a charge, but then it becomes the easy fix get out, as there’s no evidence either way

There's a safety net for low earners and emergencies such as covid/flu are exemptions. Charges are dealt with sympathetically and are seen as an incentive. No show numbers are falling, as the use of email/SMS reminders increases.

 

[Osvaldorama]

No surrender! It's not just the population but years of underinvestment in personnel and infrastructure as well you know. Come up with some real solutions your alledged experience should be able to provide instead of shrill hysterical unsubstantiated C&P one liners.

My solution is to bin off the NHS in its current form tbh.

There are many small fixes but I came to the conclusion that the NHS is unsustainable when I worked in it. Either we limit migration and let the infrastructure catch up, or we have to privatise all healthcare.

It’s impossible to have a social health service when the population is expanding by millions per year.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

There's a safety net for low earners and emergencies such as covid/flu are exemptions. Charges are dealt with sympathetically and are seen as an incentive. No show numbers are falling, as the use of email/SMS reminders increases.

Interesting to see cost/benefits of system as it will take more NHS Admin, also difference is you have a payment Health system, ours is free
Text reminder system is a no brainer

 

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The UK population has only grown 13.8% in my life time. I imagine if this was all white people having babies there wouldn’t be an issue for some people.

 

[StJabbo1]

My solution is to bin off the NHS in its current form tbh.

There are many small fixes but I came to the conclusion that the NHS is unsustainable when I worked in it. Either we limit migration and let the infrastructure catch up, or we have to privatise all healthcare.

It’s impossible to have a social health service when the population is expanding by millions per year.

So migration is your default cause when migrants are providing a large proportion of the workforce.
"Recent NHS data shows that across all NHS staff in England (1.4 million), more than 17 per cent (264,815) are from overseas. Percentages for nurses are much higher – nearly 27 per cent of NHS nurses are from outside the UK (99,856 of the 372,605 nurses and health visitors recorded).8 Dec 2023"
It's the criminal lack of investment given the population increase, changing age demographics, increasingly expensive treatments and of course the inefficiencies that need to be addressed. Limiting migration will do little to help if anything, as is widely reported, along with brexit has caused staff number to have dropped alarmingly.

Your fixation with migration and privatisation have clouded your thinking.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

So migration is your default cause when migrants are providing a large proportion of the workforce.
"Recent NHS data shows that across all NHS staff in England (1.4 million), more than 17 per cent (264,815) are from overseas. Percentages for nurses are much higher – nearly 27 per cent of NHS nurses are from outside the UK (99,856 of the 372,605 nurses and health visitors recorded).8 Dec 2023"
It's the criminal lack of investment given the population increase, changing age demographics, increasingly expensive treatments and of course the inefficiencies that need to be addressed. Limiting migration will do little to help if anything, as is widely reported, along with brexit has caused staff number to have dropped alarmingly.

Your fixation with migration and privatisation have clouded your thinking.

The biggest criminal act was the removal of the bursary system for nursing degrees in 2017, leading to a 24% drop in applications for nurse training.

We have always depended on immigrants to staff the NHS, ever since its inception in 1948. The Windrush generation from the West Indies, from the Commonwealth, and from the EU until 2020.

Attacking the NHS has always been an obsession with conservatives of all persuasions. The finest achievement of humankind is a prime target for all those whose outlook is based on contempt for anyone worse off than themselves.

 

[San Tejón]

The below shows what happens when the NHS is properly funded. Destroying the NHS was deliberate and ably supported by those who kept them in power at the ballot box.

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[San Tejón]

The biggest criminal act was the removal of the bursary system for nursing degrees in 2017, leading to a 24% drop in applications for nurse training.

We have always depended on immigrants to staff the NHS, ever since its inception in 1948. The Windrush generation from the West Indies, from the Commonwealth, and from the EU until 2020.

Attacking the NHS has always been an obsession with conservatives of all persuasions. The finest achievement of humankind is a prime target for all those whose outlook is based on contempt for anyone worse off than themselves.

I think the government should strike a deal with wannabe nurses and doctors, giving them free training in return for a signed commitment that when their training reaches a certain level they will serve in the NHS for a set number of years, creating a conveyor belt of new recruits.
I think this would work for dentists too. Train them and set them up in a surgery and use them to sort out the dentistry problems for a set period of time and then allow them to start introducing private patients alongside the NHS patients.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

The below shows what happens when the NHS is properly funded. Destroying the NHS was deliberate and ably supported by those who kept them in power at the ballot box.

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I hadn’t realised there was basically ZERO of the really bad stuff, quite an achievement

 

[saintrichie123]

The right wing BBC not fact checking again.

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[saintrichie123]

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The Daily Mail …..being-well…. the Daily Mail with its misleading and inaccurate stories.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

In fairness, this is the daily article that they put out of all papers, kind of like 'what the papers say', so it isn't necessarily the BBC view, but what the papers across the spectrum say


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0ew01p3rnxo