Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Brighton & Hove Albion

[Spurlock]

It's not weird, it's entirely accurate. Making substitutions doesn't reduce the chance of errors. Better to let those who made the errors play on.

Football isn’t as complex as you want it to sound

individual errors and a subsequent loss of confidence is a strong possibility and is seen time and time again in players within a game

subs are an option for many reasons and to attempt to change the dynamics of your team is one very good reason

I don’t think anyone claims that making subs reduces the chance of errors, what it does do is to shake things up and that is an important tool at your disposal within a game of football

 

[PowerSpurs]

Errors will happen regardless but to think in the 2nd half that any substitutions that he makes would be irrelevant is mind boggling.

This is school boy stuff, if a player is not competing and doing the business on the pitch then haul him off and give someone else the chance to make a difference. I would have loved to see Moore get way more than 5 mins when you consider the inability of Werner to pick a pass, after 5 minutes we all saw that.

This indifference to substitutions is an extremely narrow minded approach to football.

It really isn't. You choose the starting X1 for a reason. There is no data you can gather during a game that should change your opinion. Making one mistake is not a sign that you will make a further one. After about the 70th minute the starting X1 will be tired and then fresher players will make a positive difference. You might make a tactical substitution if the opponents have surprised you by their tactics and you need to deal with that. But taking someone off because he is playing badly is not sensible because unless he is ill or injured it's not an indication that he will continue to play badly.

 

[Dier Hard]

I happen to think Ange is probably right, i have seen it too many times with my own team.
Once a team start giving up/stop trying then five subs don't turn that around, all that seems to happen is a five or ten minuet lift then the subs fall into the same behaviour.
Best thing you can try to do is stop the flow of the opposition and sort it for the next game. Attitude is contageous and hard to pull back during a game.

I’m not sure that’s true though, Maguire literally just the other night for you lot came on and rescued a point in Europa.

I feel like you have to believe in your squad players that they’re capable of making a difference otherwise what’s the point in having them?

Udogie was partly responsible for all three goals today, what’s not to say that after Brighton’s second, if we’d subbed him for Spence, the mistake that lead to the third could’ve been avoided? Of course, it could’ve equally meant Brighton may have gone on to score 3 more goals if Spence came on but surely it’s better to try and alter the outcome than do nothing at all and essentially accept defeat?

 

[KingHotspur]

But taking someone off because he is playing badly is not sensible because unless he is ill or injured it's not an indication that he will continue to play badly.

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[PowerSpurs]

Football isn’t as complex as you want it to sound

individual errors and a subsequent loss of confidence is a strong possibility and is seen time and time again in players within a game

subs are an option for many reasons and to attempt to change the dynamics of your team is one very good reason

I don’t think anyone claims that making subs reduces the chance of errors, what it does do is to shake things up and that is an important tool at your disposal within a game of football

So when do you need to shake it up? We completely outplayed Brighton for 45 minutes. Then at the start of the second half, a completely innocuous cross hits two of our best players and creates a goal for them. Is this the time to panic and make changes? Why?
I take your point that lack of confidence can lead to further errors but if we drag off Udogie after his second mistake, how does he regain the confidence to play in the next match.
As a manager I think you need to show your confidence in a player who has made mistakes so that they don't lose confidence and make more.

 

[Left on the Shelf]

subs are an option for many reasons and to attempt to change the dynamics of your team is one very good reason

This 100% For a start it sends 2 messages...1. to the player/s getting hauled that they are in the spotlight and 2. to the rest of them that they still have a chance to redeem themselves.

 

[Spurlock]

So when do you need to shake it up? We completely outplayed Brighton for 45 minutes. Then at the start of the second half, a completely innocuous cross hits two of our best players and creates a goal for them. Is this the time to panic and make changes? Why?
I take your point that lack of confidence can lead to further errors but if we drag off Udogie after his second mistake, how does he regain the confidence to play in the next match.
As a manager I think you need to show your confidence in a player who has made mistakes so that they don't lose confidence and make more.

wouldn't removing him from the pressure situation, then having a word with him whenever appropriate, in the dressing room or training etc, then starting him next game, be the way to go about it?

if that’s me as a player I may appreciate that from the manager and then being given the starting berth in the next game would re assure me that the manager does have faith in me.

 

[Dier Hard]

So when do you need to shake it up? We completely outplayed Brighton for 45 minutes. Then at the start of the second half, a completely innocuous cross hits two of our best players and creates a goal for them. Is this the time to panic and make changes? Why?
I take your point that lack of confidence can lead to further errors but if we drag off Udogie after his second mistake, how does he regain the confidence to play in the next match.
As a manager I think you need to show your confidence in a player who has made mistakes so that they don't lose confidence and make more.

He regains his confidence by starting the following game.

Udogie has been a good player for us, he’ll know that every now and then a bad performance will happen, every footballer on the planet has them, even Messi and Ronaldo did in their prime. But if a player is making constant mistakes in a game then for the benefit for the team they need to come off.

 

[PowerSpurs]

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I am very serious. If you think very short term performance is a better guide to future performance than long or medium term performance then show me the data to back that up. There are loads of sports like tennis where it's an easy calculation. If Djokovic loses the first set to the number 20 in the world it doesn't change the chance of him winning the next one....he is still the better player.

 

[PowerSpurs]

He regains his confidence by starting the following game.

Udogie has been a good player for us, he’ll know that every now and then a bad performance will happen, every footballer on the planet has them, even Messi and Ronaldo did in their prime. But if a player is making constant mistakes in a game then for the benefit for the team they need to come off.

It only benefits the team if the player coming on is likely to play better. Since you don't believe that as you are not selecting him for the next match why are you bringing him in on?

 

[PowerSpurs]

wouldn't removing him from the pressure situation, then having a word with him whenever appropriate, in the dressing room or training etc, then starting him next game, be the way to go about it?

if that’s me as a player I may appreciate that from the manager and then being given the starting berth in the next game would re assure me that the manager does have faith in me.

I think the opposite. If players think the manager will hook them if they make mistakes they will play with less freedom.

 

[Dier Hard]

It only benefits the team if the player coming on is likely to play better. Since you don't believe that as you are not selecting him for the next match why are you bringing him in on?

And that’s the point of making the sub, the player coming on would hopefully play better. Being an inferior player doesn’t mean they can’t play better in a one off performance. The person that started put in an unacceptable performance, they should’ve been taken off with the hopes of someone being able to put in an acceptable one. If the replacement is unable to then it doesn’t change the course of the game, but if they are able to, it then potentially alters the game in our favour.

 

[PowerSpurs]

This 100% For a start it sends 2 messages...1. to the player/s getting hauled that they are in the spotlight and 2. to the rest of them that they still have a chance to redeem themselves.

When you are at work and make a mistake, do you respond better to your manager supporting you and continuing to trust you, or to being pulled off the job in public view, and sent home. If you saw this happen to a colleague would that make you feel good about the manager and work better for him?

 

[PowerSpurs]

And that’s the point of making the sub, the player coming on would hopefully play better. Being an inferior player doesn’t mean they can’t play better in a one off performance. The person that started put in an unacceptable performance, they should’ve been taken off with the hopes of someone being able to put in an acceptable one. If the replacement is unable to then it doesn’t change the course of the game, but if they are able to, it then potentially alters the game in our favour.

That is true, if and only if, the likely future performance of the player to be taken off is better predicted by his performance so far in the match than his past history. I simply don't believe that and can see no reason why it should be true. Bringing on an inferior player is surely likely to lead to a lower chance of improving the team.

 

[Huddlejonny]

So when do you need to shake it up? We completely outplayed Brighton for 45 minutes. Then at the start of the second half, a completely innocuous cross hits two of our best players and creates a goal for them. Is this the time to panic and make changes? Why?
I take your point that lack of confidence can lead to further errors but if we drag off Udogie after his second mistake, how does he regain the confidence to play in the next match.
As a manager I think you need to show your confidence in a player who has made mistakes so that they don't lose confidence and make more.

If you zoom out on that opinion and apply it to Werner being selected match after match, he is not playing with confidence and unfortunately for us he is not producing the goods.

On one hand Ange wants us to kill games and score goals but on the other he insists on starting Werner who, let's face it, isn't up to the job.

How much longer does he keep selecting Werner in the hope that he comes good? In the last few games how many chances could someone else besides Werner convert into an assist or a goal. We'll never know because Ange refuses to bend on his team selection and in-game substitutions.

 

[Dier Hard]

That is true, if and only if, the likely future performance of the player to be taken off is better predicted by his performance so far in the match than his past history. I simply don't believe that and can see no reason why it should be true. Bringing on an inferior player is surely likely to lead to a lower chance of improving the team.

Not if the superior player is playing well below the inferior one’s capabilities.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Not if the superior player is playing well below the inferior one’s capabilities.

He is more likely having a bad few minutes and will play at the top of his game for the rest of the match.

 

[Huddlejonny]

When you are at work and make a mistake, do you respond better to your manager supporting you and continuing to trust you, or to being pulled off the job in public view, and sent home. If you saw this happen to a colleague would that make you feel good about the manager and work better for him?

It would lay down a marker that I need to try harder. Standards would slip if there were no consequence to ineffective performance and that would be contagious.

 

[PowerSpurs]

If you zoom out on that opinion and apply it to Werner being selected match after match, he is not playing with confidence and unfortunately for us he is not producing the goods.

On one hand Ange wants us to kill games and score goals but on the other he insists on starting Werner who, let's face it, isn't up to the job.

How much longer does he keep selecting Werner in the hope that he comes good? In the last few games how many chances could someone else besides Werner convert into an assist or a goal. We'll never know because Ange refuses to bend on his team selection and in-game substitutions.

Essentially the only option instead of Werner is Moore and whichever starts the other will be on the bench. There are arguments both ways but I can see why Ange prefers experience over throwing Moore in too early.

 

[Dier Hard]

He is more likely having a bad few minutes and will play at the top of his game for the rest of the match.

Except that didn’t happen.

After the second mistake he should’ve been subbed, he wasn’t, he then made a third mistake.