WAR! What is it good for?

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Proportionality in the conduct of war is one of the most willfully misunderstood areas of IHL, largely because of how oblique it is and how near-impossible it is to pursue with any real objective clarity.

I'm not arguing that Israel is or isn't acting proportionately. What I'm saying is that the Law itself is almost impossible to uphold, since it seeks to establish objective practical policy based on a subjective emotional assessment, which is ludicrous and totally counter intuitive.

The interrelationship between CDE and NCV (if you don't know what those stand for, you don't know enough about this section of IHL to possibly comment) is nuanced, complex and entirely subjective. They were NATO's attempts to pass Proportionality into law. The results were simply bizarre, with policy makers suggesting a ratio similar to 30 civilians:1 Osama bin Laden would be considered 'proportionate'.

Who the feck makes up those numbers? Who sits there plucking ratios out of thin air to then decide what is or isn't 'lawful'?

If Osama bin Laden is sitting in a room with 31 civilians, do we abort the mission and let him go free?

Can you not see how infuriatingly illogical the whole thing is?

Bottom line is, it is a noble and well-intended area of IHL that purports to be scientific but is actually totally emotional and therefore impossible to legislate.


Well yes, the whole issue is incredibly emotional, which is why I tend to avoid debates about Middle Eastern politics. I admit also, that I’m not that well informed.

But being human, I do get emotional when I see dead kids being pulled out of the rubble on my TV screen. And so does the rest of the world. There is such a thing as the court of public opinion, and it seems to me Israel is absolutely in the dock right now.
 
You’ve taken a side since October 8th. I’d have probably expected them not to kill and rape their way through a music festival and kibbutzim.

My 'side' is, and always has been, a 2 state solution and the avoidance of the slaughter of innocents at all costs ...

The Palestinians are due a homeland just as much as the Israelis IMO, whether you like that or not (equal human rights) - you obviously don't think so and that's your prerogative ... but plenty of Jewish people disagree with you ... never mind the majority of people in the world.

I am against, and always have been against, the illegal occupation (under International Law) of Oslo accord, Palestinian designated land and the illegal settlements (under International Law) in the West Bank ... you seem to think that view makes me some sort of Palestinian supporter rather than just a holder of a view shared by most governments and individuals in the world ...

I am not anti-Israel and have always defended it's right to exist (just as I do 'Palestine's') ... I am certainly anti Netanyahu and his regime's flagrant and continuing disregard for both International Law and for the sanctity of civilian life ...

The conflict in the middle-east will not be resolved by force of arms - it will only be resolved by a negotiated settlement... and Netanyahu will avoid that at all costs because his regime would be forced into addressing the International Law breaches mentioned before International Arbitration...
 
Nothing to do with left vs right imo, and even less to do with Jews vs Moslems or whatever tribal bollocks people get fired up about. What the whole world is witnessing is the wholesale massacre of innocent civilians.

Both sides are engaging in terrorist tactics, but Israel is supposed to be a legitimate state and member of the international community.

^^^^^

Spot on - you'll now be labelled a 'Palestinian activist/supporter' ... rather than just a rational thinker and humanist ...
 
Well yes, the whole issue is incredibly emotional, which is why I tend to avoid debates about Middle Eastern politics. I admit also, that I’m not that well informed.

But being human, I do get emotional when I see dead kids being pulled out of the rubble on my TV screen. And so does the rest of the world. There is such a thing as the court of public opinion, and it seems to me Israel is absolutely in the dock right now.

^^^^^^

On the money again
 
my point was i thought fairly clear that HornyforHamas sides with Israel completely and you blame Israel for everything and Hamas / Hezbollah for nothing cases in point
a) the hospital explosion that you and tbf most on here blamed on Israel despite there denials and yet that was proved to be a misfiring rocket fired by Hamas or Islamic Jihad
b) blaming Israel for the recent rocket strike that killed Druze children when it was obviously Hezbollah.


b) is completely out of order - I simply stated the fact that Hezbollah continue to deny it was one of theirs - you assume that stating that fact means I'm accusing Israel of it - I never have ...

On a) the strike was initially reported as an IDF strike ... now if I accepted those reports at the time, my bad - was I sceptical that the Israeli intelligence that was completely oblivious to the October 7th incursion then claimed their sophisticated equipment overheard an Islamic Jihad conversation:
"Oh **** Ahmed, that was one of ours, hold the tube a bit higher"
... well bad me for being such a cynic - and it's not like numerous IDF hospital strikes followed eh?
 
Archers is a rational thinker and probably a humanist. You’re just gullible on this.

What's gullible about wanting a peaceful negotiated settlement with sovereign territory for both Palestine and Israel?

... but if that makes me so - fine - proud to be that - far better than existing as a bigoted hater of those differing culturally or religiously to me and mine ... and content to see the slaughter of women and children in the name of 'home security'...
 
Really not surprising that the left wing guys on here are slamming Isreal whilst totally disregarding the kids killed by Hezbollah and the daily attacks on Israel with their rockets forcing well over 50 thousand Israelis out of their homes. Silence.

Said on day one that the lefts anti-Semite heads will keep popping up over this, it has and continues to do so.

No mention of the 2 million Gazans that have had to leave their homes?

No mention of the thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank forcibly removed from their homes so that Illegal Settlements could be built?

'Slamming' Israel for killing more women and children in Gaza than the official number of dead Ukranian soldiers in their war with Russia?

Mentioning those things doesn't make anyone anti-semitic - might make you anti the state terrorist regime currently in control in Israel that continues to flagrantly flout International Law and stands accused of war crimes ...
 
b) is completely out of order - I simply stated the fact that Hezbollah continue to deny it was one of theirs - you assume that stating that fact means I'm accusing Israel of it - I never have ...

On a) the strike was initially reported as an IDF strike ... now if I accepted those reports at the time, my bad - was I sceptical that the Israeli intelligence that was completely oblivious to the October 7th incursion then claimed their sophisticated equipment overheard an Islamic Jihad conversation:
"Oh **** Ahmed, that was one of ours, hold the tube a bit higher"
... well bad me for being such a cynic - and it's not like numerous IDF hospital strikes followed eh?
well on B) you posted on this quite a few times where and regularly gave reasons why it made no sense for Hezbollah to have hit a Druze community and have never condemned them for the attack .which is in marked contrast to your response to similar **** ups by the IDF .
 
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well on B) you posted on this quite a few times where and regularly gave reasons why it made no sense for Hezbollah to have hit a Druze community and have never condemned them for the attack .which is in marked contrast to your response to similar **** ups by the IDF .

Fosse is of the belief that Majdal Shams is in Syria.

He couldn't wrap his head around why Hezbollah would attack Syria.

This is what we're working with.
 
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Fosse is of the belief that Majdal Shams is in Syria.

He couldn't wrap his head around why Hezbollah would attack Syria.

This is what we're working with.

I think you've gone off on a tangent ...

It certainly would have made no sense for Hezbollah to have deliberately targeted s Druze community ... for sure.
 
well on B) you posted on this quite a few times where and regularly gave reasons why it made no sense for Hezbollah to have hit a Druze community and have never condemned them for the attack .which is in marked contrast to your response to similar **** ups by the IDF .

I'm more than happy to condemn whoever fired the rocket which hit the Druze community ... if it was Hezbollah - they should have taken better precautions to ensure the direction - in fact they shouldn't be firing missiles at all - but that will only happen after a negotiated peace in the whole reason ...

... but attempts to find some equivalence for a dozen civilian deaths involving a misfire with the systematic targeting of schools, hospitals, mosques and churches, knowing that the civilian casualties will vastly outnumber those of terrorists is woeful, immoral and frankly, rather disgusting ...
 
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I'm more than happy to condemn whoever fired the rocket which hit the Druze community ... if it was Hezbollah - they should have taken better precautions to ensure the direction - in fact they shouldn't be firing missiles at all - but that will only happen after a negotiated peace in the whole reason ...
ffs it WAS Hezbollah there is no if about it .This is exactly what i meant about your double standards on this subject as you don't wait for IDF or Mossad confirmation to condemn them.
 
ffs it WAS Hezbollah there is no if about it .This is exactly what i meant about your double standards on this subject as you don't wait for IDF or Mossad confirmation to condemn them.

Then if it was - my point stands - as do the others that follow it ...

... and forgive me if I reserve the right to take anything that an Israeli regime flagrantly flouting International Law and Human rights says at face value ... frankly I don't trust any government ... and the US has always given blind support to Israel whilst ignoring those obvious breaches of law and rights...

... well until now - but the tides are changing ...
 
Then if it was - my point stands - as do the others that follow it ...

... and forgive me if I reserve the right to take anything that an Israeli regime flagrantly flouting International Law and Human rights says at face value ... frankly I don't trust any government ... and the US has always given blind support to Israel whilst ignoring those obvious breaches of law and rights...

... well until now - but the tides are changing ...
but you will trust the word of Hezbollah who also flagrantly breaking International law by targeting civilians .
 
but you will trust the word of Hezbollah who also flagrantly breaking International law by targeting civilians .

I trust very few individuals never mind regimes, organisations or governments ... I have never said I trust Hezbollah - that's your projection... but I certainly don't trust this Israeli regime - like a growing number of Israelis ...

Out of interest what are your thoughts about the occupation and settlements in the West Bank? - can't recall you commenting ....
 
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I trust very few individuals never mind regimes, organisations or governments ... I have never said I trust Hezbollah - that's your projection... but I certainly don't trust this Israeli regime - like a growing number of Israelis ...

Out of interest what are your thoughts about the occupation and settlements in the West Bank? - can't recall you commenting ....
they are illegal and always have been but as i have said before when i was there around 1979 there was already settlements going up on Palestinian land and nothing has ever been done about it by the international community so it will continue and in fact get worse due to growing influence of the settler organisations .