Off Topic Politics Thread

[......loading......]

You know what Loading, I’m now starting to wonder if we wouldn’t get on if we met for a pint.

I’d be worried you wouldn’t be able to share the load and get your round in

There was a reason I had you on ignore, we just don’t see eye to eye, I don’t think you like who this persona is you created in your head of me, and I just don’t care enough for your point of view.

It’d only distract from the rest of the reasoned debates on here. Have a value-for-money, wealth-distributed evening

You say that as if it is a bad thing. A value for money, wealth distributed world should be everyone’s goal.

Nice to insult me based on my economic capacity though. Just proves my point.

 

[Billy Bates]

Relax. I’ll have a tap water on your round.

Sure. Everything I say is serious and proves your point

On a serious point, I’m genuinely not interested in your financial position. I was saying it tongue in cheek, apologies if you took it the wrong way

 

[......loading......]

Relax. I’ll have a tap water on your round.

Sure. Everything I say is serious and proves your point

On a serious point, I’m genuinely not interested in your financial position. I was saying it tongue in cheek, apologies if you took it the wrong way

And I was trying to discuss the relationship between inherited wealth and success. I wasn’t really interested in you! I grew up a council estate and have very little sympathy for people who earn more and have increased their expenses to match.

 

[Billy Bates]

Ah at last we have something in common. I also grew up on an estate. Although mine had Peacocks within the grounds.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

James O’Brien had a caller who pointed all this out yesterday, and the light dawned in JO’B as it did in me. Labour are being very astute in getting this out early in the piece, as by the time it actually hits, the people who would be affected most would have been given help to claim their pension credit if they hadn’t already.

I fall into the category of those where the payment is a nice bonus but not actually strictly needed, so while I’m not happy at losing it, I can see the need, given the utterly ruinous state the country was left in. I just hope that some form of wealth tax is introduced to make up the rest of the shortfall.

It also gives eligibility for other stuff
Google it, Age UK or CAB

 

[shoot_spiderman]

When do the payments kick in / have to be claimed by?

Claim it whenever, if you’re on State Pension, backdate able to claim date
Do a check online, DWP

 

[It'sOnlyAGame]

Ah at last we have something in common. I also grew up on an estate. Although mine had Peacocks within the grounds.

I quite like posts that go against the flow on here but I can't go along with what you posted earlier;

I never sat there whining like a bitch that I didnt have enough money and that the world wasnt fair - i got the **** on with stuff to make sure I improved my value. All through my 20's I had this view, thought everything was unfair and unbalanced. It was at this point I knew I ****ed up, and took responsibility individually.

It's something that you hear quite often from people who have done well for themselves and can't understand why everyone else can't do the same. That in my view shows a lack of understanding of society and people's capabilities.
I don't know your background but I've worked for companies that had large numbers and a wide cross section of employees. I can tell you that there are many people that just don't have the ability to improve their job position or their financial opportunities even if they wanted to. They quite often work very hard at what they do, but they will only ever do unskilled manual work*. Anything more is beyond them but they still deserve to have a salary (or benefits) that enables them to live without making a choice between eating or heating. Where that money comes from is another argument but some companies excessive profits may be a good place to start.

*This is not said with a derogatory intention, far from it, I was in industry all my working life. In that time I've rubbed shoulders with many different types of people, many of whom are good, decent and hard working but further education, entrepreneurial awareness or just plain old ambition is not within their scope. I'm pleased for anyone like yourself that has got the rewards of their hard work but you have to understand some people don't get the choice.

 

[San Tejón]

If the UK state pension was fit for purpose pensioners wouldn’t need to claim benefits.
I am against what Starmer is doing with the winter fuel allowance but was there this much fuss when the Tories suspended the triple lock for a year, giving pensioners a 2.5% increase instead of the 8% that wages were rising at? 2022?
It also doesn’t help that personal tax allowance has been frozen since 2021(?) and will remain frozen until 2027/28, unless Labour REALLY wants to help the poor by unfreezing them asap. Pensioners, even with very small personal pensions, are being dragged into paying tax, but probably don’t qualify for pension credit because the small private pension puts them over the threshold.

 

[Billy Bates]

I quite like posts that go against the flow on here but I can't go along with what you posted earlier;

I never sat there whining like a bitch that I didnt have enough money and that the world wasnt fair - i got the **** on with stuff to make sure I improved my value. All through my 20's I had this view, thought everything was unfair and unbalanced. It was at this point I knew I ****ed up, and took responsibility individually.

It's something that you hear quite often from people who have done well for themselves and can't understand why everyone else can't do the same. That in my view shows a lack of understanding of society and people's capabilities.
I don't know your background but I've worked for companies that had large numbers and a wide cross section of employees. I can tell you that there are many people that just don't have the ability to improve their job position or their financial opportunities even if they wanted to. They quite often work very hard at what they do, but they will only ever do unskilled manual work*. Anything more is beyond them but they still deserve to have a salary (or benefits) that enables them to live without making a choice between eating or heating. Where that money comes from is another argument but some companies excessive profits may be a good place to start.

*This is not said with a derogatory intention, far from it, I was in industry all my working life. In that time I've rubbed shoulders with many different types of people, many of whom are good, decent and hard working but further education, entrepreneurial awareness or just plain old ambition is not within their scope. I'm pleased for anyone like yourself that has got the rewards of their hard work but you have to understand some people don't get the choice.

Oh i completely agree btw. I’m not for one moment suggesting everyone can just get on with stuff and improve things. I know not everyone can do it, although i think more can certainly do it than actually try to achieve it.

I don’t have stats to back this up either, and have seen this with my own eyes. I was merely pointing out some of us do change things. I never had any help from anyone in my field. I was trying to be a little motivational that if a ****wit like me can do something about it, then more people have hope as I wasn’t the straight A student.

I also agree that people do deserve to have a life where they can afford stuff, but that is a global issue around cost of goods and all the massive amount of stuff that drives that, but i do take exception at the voices of some that the end to this is to tax the tits of people who earn way above average. I had most of my 20s earning not much, so I get where this view comes from, just not how we go about changing it. I get some firms should be held to account, but I didn’t hear many on here saying how we reduce the dependency on the state to pay for a benefits bill that last time i checked i think was as much as the police, nhs and teachers budget combined (this may be inaccurate, but you get the point - it is out of hand).

So my point on this last para is around yes, looking at taxing large PLCs of course, but also lets try to go both ways as there are literally 0000’s of people who perhaps shouldn’t be sitting there with their hands out.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Oh i completely agree btw. I’m not for one moment suggesting everyone can just get on with stuff and improve things. I know not everyone can do it, although i think more can certainly do it than actually try to achieve it.

I don’t have stats to back this up either, and have seen this with my own eyes. I was merely pointing out some of us do change things. I never had any help from anyone in my field. I was trying to be a little motivational that if a ****wit like me can do something about it, then more people have hope as I wasn’t the straight A student.

I also agree that people do deserve to have a life where they can afford stuff, but that is a global issue around cost of goods and all the massive amount of stuff that drives that, but i do take exception at the voices of some that the end to this is to tax the tits of people who earn way above average. I had most of my 20s earning not much, so I get where this view comes from, just not how we go about changing it. I get some firms should be held to account, but I didn’t hear many on here saying how we reduce the dependency on the state to pay for a benefits bill that last time i checked i think was as much as the police, nhs and teachers budget combined (this may be inaccurate, but you get the point - it is out of hand).

So my point on this last para is around yes, looking at taxing large PLCs of course, but also lets try to go both ways as there are literally 0000’s of people who perhaps shouldn’t be sitting there with their hands out.

Tax foreign home ownership.
Batter to **** foreign home ownership with no occupancy.
Tax second home ownership big style too.

It would be a start.

 

[Billy Bates]

Tax foreign home ownership.
Batter to **** foreign home ownership with no occupancy.
Tax second home ownership big style too.

It would be a start.

Yeah that could work, although i wonder what would happen to the domestic housing market as a result of taxing second homes more. I don’t believe it is as simple as just letting the bubble burst as I’m sure that would have further reaching consequences.

I still don’t see any measures though mentioned of reducing the benefits burden that is also part of the issue imo.

Surely by reducing this would mean more money to go round where it is needed most, along with wider taxation.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Yeah that could work, although i wonder what would happen to the domestic housing market as a result of taxing second homes more. I don’t believe it is as simple as just letting the bubble burst as I’m sure that would have further reaching consequences.

I still don’t see any measures though mentioned of reducing the benefits burden that is also part of the issue imo.

Surely by reducing this would mean more money to go round where it is needed most, along with wider taxation.

Yep agreed on that too.

 

[San Tejón]

Tax foreign home ownership.
Batter to **** foreign home ownership with no occupancy.
Tax second home ownership big style too.

It would be a start.

First thing for me would be taxes on profits from assets being at least equal to the taxes paid by people who are working for their money, and take away the “dividend allowance” and lump it in with the personal allowance.
Basic rate on shares dividends starts at 8.75%, higher rate is 33.75%. I don’t know what the income parameters are.
Basic income tax rate for working is 20% rising to 40% at £50271.00, then 45% over £125140.00.
People doing the slog should not pay a higher rate than those getting money for doing nothing.

 

[woolstonian]

First thing for me would be taxes on profits from assets being at least equal to the taxes paid by people who are working for their money, and take away the “dividend allowance” and lump it in with the personal allowance.
Basic rate on shares dividends starts at 8.75%, higher rate is 33.75%. I don’t know what the income parameters are.
Basic income tax rate for working is 20% rising to 40% at £50271.00, then 45% over £125140.00.
People doing the slog should not pay a higher rate than those getting money for doing nothing.

Don't forget that dividend tax is paid on profits which have already been subject to Corporation tax of 25% so they are not a low tax alternative to PAYE.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Ah at last we have something in common. I also grew up on an estate. Although mine had Peacocks within the grounds.

The shop?

 

[tomw24]

Ha, I see Trump fell hook, line and sinker for Harris' tactics in the debate last night. Instead of focusing on his key topics, he spent most of it defending himself from strategic (and accurate) jibes from Harris.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

Oh i completely agree btw. I’m not for one moment suggesting everyone can just get on with stuff and improve things. I know not everyone can do it, although i think more can certainly do it than actually try to achieve it.

I don’t have stats to back this up either, and have seen this with my own eyes. I was merely pointing out some of us do change things. I never had any help from anyone in my field. I was trying to be a little motivational that if a ****wit like me can do something about it, then more people have hope as I wasn’t the straight A student.

I also agree that people do deserve to have a life where they can afford stuff, but that is a global issue around cost of goods and all the massive amount of stuff that drives that, but i do take exception at the voices of some that the end to this is to tax the tits of people who earn way above average. I had most of my 20s earning not much, so I get where this view comes from, just not how we go about changing it. I get some firms should be held to account, but I didn’t hear many on here saying how we reduce the dependency on the state to pay for a benefits bill that last time i checked i think was as much as the police, nhs and teachers budget combined (this may be inaccurate, but you get the point - it is out of hand).

So my point on this last para is around yes, looking at taxing large PLCs of course, but also lets try to go both ways as there are literally 0000’s of people who perhaps shouldn’t be sitting there with their hands out.

Can we get away from these extremes though
We shouldn’t tax the tits of anyone, but everyone should pay their fair share

Benefits claimants aren’t generally sitting there with their hands out, many of them are on low incomes or trying to find work

Services need to support people into work and sanction those who won’t do their bit

In my youth there used to be lots of jobs and working people generally bring up kids who also become the same

Having unemployed parents reduces aspirations and motivation, being on benefits is ****, but it can be a life people get used to and don’t see a better alternative to

 

[Gregm1988]

I wonder if this weird conspiracy theory about people eating pets in Ohio was somehow stoked by Democrat supporting people. I say this because Trump stands up and starts ranting in the debate (seemingly as one of the first things he said) about “in Springfield they are eating cats and dogs”. He couldn’t sound more like Grandpa Simpson yelling at clouds if he tried. Did it really have to be in Springfield ?

 

[Billy Bates]

Can we get away from these extremes though
We shouldn’t tax the tits of anyone, but everyone should pay their fair share

Benefits claimants aren’t generally sitting there with their hands out, many of them are on low incomes or trying to find work

Services need to support people into work and sanction those who won’t do their bit

In my youth there used to be lots of jobs and working people generally bring up kids who also become the same

Having unemployed parents reduces aspirations and motivation, being on benefits is ****, but it can be a life people get used to and don’t see a better alternative to

So, what is a fair share. Should someone lose 45% of what they earn over a certain value? Or more, or less?

I agree with your comments btw, but I wasnt sure what extremes you are referring to.

We naturally do need to support people back into work, low income families. I guess my point is around how the government identify those in need and those who are taking the piss, and that it should be recognised that supporting people comes from taxing the more wealthy but also those who shouldnt be able to claim, or not work etc.

Generally on here, there is only discussion about raising funds to support people by taxing, not about reducing the welfare bill in addition to this - surely it is a reasonable debate to look at both avenues, otherwise we are just alienating those that foot more of the bill...

 

[One of yer Norvern Saints]

I'm a little lost on this one.

So, I think it is a good measure that Labour are effectively means testing the winter fuel payments, and perhaps the size of the UK benefits bill could do with more of such measures.

However, I get this is generalising, but so many on here seem to hate the wealthy - companies, individuals etc. Yet as pointed out above, want a wealth tax from the wealthy. So, are the wealthy so bad if they are able to be called upon at a whim to help those with less?

And if there was no wealth as such - ie reducing/removing the wealth gap, do we believe it would solve the issue?

Surely there is a bit of both worlds meeting here - in that the wealth divide is large, i get that, but why should some have stuff taken from them to continually help out, and that why are we seemingly unable to look at reducing the need to keep taxing the tits of the wealthy, as in how do we drastically reduce the benefits bill? Surely it has to work both ways, cant always be the rich bailing out the poor - those with less also need to take a degree of responsibility and the government (whichever one) need to reduce the dependency on the state.

Only some musings, off the top of my head thoughts.

Can wait to be shot down in flames and pointed out where my moral compass is offline

Surely if thi is meant to be a political forum you should be able to express this view without being 'shot down in flames' or have your motives questioned