Off Topic Politics Thread

[Shandy_top_89]

Evangelical Christians in the US are a huge part of the push for pretty much unconditional support for Israel which in turn allows Israel to do whatever it chooses. They believe that Israel ruling the whole of the Levant is a precursor to the return of Jesus.

It's impossible to debate 'reasoning' like that (as it's based purely on faith) despite the real world consequences spanning the globe.

Vin

Imo although US evangelists are huge supporters of Israel, the reason they get to act with impunity is more down their geopolitical strategic value, which is absolutely immense.

 

[EasyBreezer]

Evangelical Christians in the US are a huge part of the push for pretty much unconditional support for Israel which in turn allows Israel to do whatever it chooses. They believe that Israel ruling the whole of the Levant is a precursor to the return of Jesus.

It's impossible to debate 'reasoning' like that (as it's based purely on faith) despite the real world consequences spanning the globe.

Vin

100%.

It is almost entirely due to US support that they can so blatantly break nearly every international agreement going.

 

[EasyBreezer]

I agree Palestine is in a horrendous situation and I don’t know what the route is for them, but popping the boys out to kill about 30 civilians isn’t the way to go.

Far from it, they have probably just prompted the extermination of their population for the sake of making a statement.

Just beyond insane.

To be fair, the slow grinding of Palestinian rights was killing them off anyways. At least with this option the global press will highlight their desire to fight back and not stand for Israels bullshit.

It isn't right that we don't take notice until they fire some Iranian rockets but if thats what it takes for a conversation, then you kind of have to see it as a success for hamas.

 

[woolstonian]

I have been interested in the story about the bloke who has been found guilty of treason for trying to shoot the late Queen with a crossbow and not least because he came from the village where I grew up. It is really perplexing as I think there is a mixture of genuine grievance and pure fantasy muddled up in the motivation for this assination attempt. What really fascinated me was that the story is being reported as a mental health issue and I would concur with this conclusion. However, it did remind me of the accounts of previous attempts on the assination of Queen Victoria where the same kind of conclusions were reached in at least one of the three would-be assassins.

I am really surprise that this story has not gathered more traction and been subject to wall-to-wall coverage as there are so many interesting facets about this case. I believe that the cross bow was bought on line which does not come as a surprise although it is surely something that is of huge concern of this was possible. Not sure what any "normal" person woud want with a cross bow. Then there is also the fact that Chail had been influence by an online chatbot. Again, this is something that needs to be brought up in a thorough discussion. It strikes me that the internet has clearly been instrumental in allowing Chail for fulfil his fantasy. It also underscroed my impression that there is something odd about adults still being in to Star Wars! Maybe that should be made in to another crime!!

The other issue for me is a legal one. I was surprised that none of the papers or sites like the BBC had discusse the fact that Chail had been found guilty of treason. In my opinion, this is something that I feel needs to be discussed because the issue in this case is one of mental health as opposed to a serious attempt to destabilse the state.The more I have thought about this, the more I start to question the logic of having "treason" on the books as a potential capital offence. (I stand corrected if this is no longer the case.) I feel that treason is a really old-fashioned concept and whilst I can see some justification for the charge where somene has worked on the behalf of a foreign state, I have to say that I am disturbed by the idea that it can be levied against an individual with a grudge. I would not disagree that a charges would be necessary in such instances but feel that treason has the unwelcome effect of politicising the offence. It might have been appropriate during a state of war yet I cannot see why it was necessary to charge Chail with this when something like attempted murder would seem more appropriate. I would probably need to look at what is defined as "treason" in English law. However, I feel that if someone can be partly motivated by being obsessed by Star Wars and find themselves charged for treason, we probably need to up grade the law. The bloke clearly had mental health issues and any desire on his part to seek redress for alleged grievances must surely mirror his level of understanding and grasp of reality. I appreciate that criminal cases are presented as being the Crown versus particular individuals yet I am uncomfortable with the idea that this might be the same for treason. In my opinion, it is a charge that needs to be used sparingly and only when a foreign state is involved or in a war situation. If the state is not threatened as a consequence of the crime, I do not feel the charge should be used. I would go as far as arguing that this would also be the case for acts of terrorism where other charges would be more appropriate and treason would politicise the situation. It feels like there is a need to change the law.

I made a crossbow at school, in fact a few of us in the class did! The stock in woodwork and the bow (an old car leaf spring), trigger mechanism, sight and (blunted) bolt in metalwork. I got an 'A'. The day it was finished, I simply collected it and carried it home, not even in a bag. Different times then (1979).

 

[woolstonian]

I have been interested in the story about the bloke who has been found guilty of treason for trying to shoot the late Queen with a crossbow and not least because he came from the village where I grew up. It is really perplexing as I think there is a mixture of genuine grievance and pure fantasy muddled up in the motivation for this assination attempt. What really fascinated me was that the story is being reported as a mental health issue and I would concur with this conclusion. However, it did remind me of the accounts of previous attempts on the assination of Queen Victoria where the same kind of conclusions were reached in at least one of the three would-be assassins.

I am really surprise that this story has not gathered more traction and been subject to wall-to-wall coverage as there are so many interesting facets about this case. I believe that the cross bow was bought on line which does not come as a surprise although it is surely something that is of huge concern of this was possible. Not sure what any "normal" person woud want with a cross bow. Then there is also the fact that Chail had been influence by an online chatbot. Again, this is something that needs to be brought up in a thorough discussion. It strikes me that the internet has clearly been instrumental in allowing Chail for fulfil his fantasy. It also underscroed my impression that there is something odd about adults still being in to Star Wars! Maybe that should be made in to another crime!!

The other issue for me is a legal one. I was surprised that none of the papers or sites like the BBC had discusse the fact that Chail had been found guilty of treason. In my opinion, this is something that I feel needs to be discussed because the issue in this case is one of mental health as opposed to a serious attempt to destabilse the state.The more I have thought about this, the more I start to question the logic of having "treason" on the books as a potential capital offence. (I stand corrected if this is no longer the case.) I feel that treason is a really old-fashioned concept and whilst I can see some justification for the charge where somene has worked on the behalf of a foreign state, I have to say that I am disturbed by the idea that it can be levied against an individual with a grudge. I would not disagree that a charges would be necessary in such instances but feel that treason has the unwelcome effect of politicising the offence. It might have been appropriate during a state of war yet I cannot see why it was necessary to charge Chail with this when something like attempted murder would seem more appropriate. I would probably need to look at what is defined as "treason" in English law. However, I feel that if someone can be partly motivated by being obsessed by Star Wars and find themselves charged for treason, we probably need to up grade the law. The bloke clearly had mental health issues and any desire on his part to seek redress for alleged grievances must surely mirror his level of understanding and grasp of reality. I appreciate that criminal cases are presented as being the Crown versus particular individuals yet I am uncomfortable with the idea that this might be the same for treason. In my opinion, it is a charge that needs to be used sparingly and only when a foreign state is involved or in a war situation. If the state is not threatened as a consequence of the crime, I do not feel the charge should be used. I would go as far as arguing that this would also be the case for acts of terrorism where other charges would be more appropriate and treason would politicise the situation. It feels like there is a need to change the law.

The other question was whether he would be jailed or sent to a secure hospital. It seems as though the treason conviction guaranteed the former when clearly the latter seemed the more appropriate option.

 

[Osvaldorama]

To be fair, the slow grinding of Palestinian rights was killing them off anyways. At least with this option the global press will highlight their desire to fight back and not stand for Israels bullshit.

It isn't right that we don't take notice until they fire some Iranian rockets but if thats what it takes for a conversation, then you kind of have to see it as a success.

this post reads an awful lot like you’re on the side of terrorists which is quite sickening tbh

 

[EasyBreezer]

this post reads an awful lot like you’re on the side of terrorists which is quite sickening tbh

Lol.

I am absolutely against Hamas and their actions today as I said earlier. This whole situation has been left untouched for years and I am merely pointing out that this situation was always going to escalate towards this point.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Lol.

I am absolutely against Hamas and their actions today as I said earlier. This whole situation has been left untouched for years and I am merely pointing out that this situation was always going to escalate towards this point.

It hasn’t been “left untouched”. Unfortunately it has been simmering away and escalating. Our media just controls a narrative and only reports on certain things. I have colleagues in Israel who foresaw this situation escalating when I was with them back in Jan.

The atrocities committed by Hamas today against innocent Israelis cannot be seen as “a success” by any metric.

The way I see it the Israelis are fighting for their very survival. They could have attacked Gaza at any time; yet they have been the ones to strive for peace and de-escalation when possible. Hamas won’t rest until all Jews are eradicated.

Todays attack is utterly despicable and I despair for humanity as it seems that Israel will now lash out in retaliation. I saw footage of hundreds of tanks moving toward the front line.

 

[EasyBreezer]

It hasn’t been “left untouched”. Unfortunately it has been simmering away and escalating. Our media just controls a narrative and only reports on certain things. I have colleagues in Israel who foresaw this situation escalating when I was with them back in Jan.

The atrocities committed by Hamas today against innocent Israelis cannot be seen as “a success” by any metric.

The way I see it the Israelis are fighting for their very survival. They could have attacked Gaza at any time; yet they have been the ones to strive for peace and de-escalation when possible. Hamas won’t rest until all Jews are eradicated.

Todays attack is utterly despicable and I despair for humanity as it seems that Israel will now lash out in retaliation. I saw footage of hundreds of tanks moving toward the front line.

A success for Hamas...? Clearly not a success for anyone else...

Of course it has been untouched. The fact it has been allowed to escalate to this point proves that entirely. Ever since Netanyahu came back in this more extreme reincarnation this was inevitable.

And obviously this will be terrible for the residents of Gaza. Sad times.

 

[Schad]

They could have attacked Gaza at any time.

They have been attacking Gaza for two decades, Skippy. Hamas' actions here are self-defeating and stupid, but a quick glance at the borders of Gaza and Israel in recent years would put this whole concept to rest. Israel hasn't been fighting for survival since 1973.

 

[Osvaldorama]

They have been attacking Gaza for two decades, Skippy. Hamas' actions here are self-defeating and stupid, but a quick glance at the borders of Gaza and Israel in recent years would put this whole concept to rest. Israel hasn't been fighting for survival since 1973.

I’m sure a socialist such as yourself will totally gloss over the fact that Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and left Palestinians to govern themselves.

What they chose to do was elect a terrorist group and the reward has been non-stop terrorist attacks ever since.

 

[Shandy_top_89]

Hmm just seen in the story that some of the people Hamas kidnapped are Philippine and Thai citizens and allegedly the naked body flaunted through the street was a German tourist, could become even more complicated?

 

[Osvaldorama]

Hmm just seen in the story that some of the people Hamas kidnapped are Philippine and Thai citizens and allegedly the naked body flaunted through the street was a German tourist, could become even more complicated?

Sadly she was there for a “festival of peace” and found out just how peaceful Hamas are. Horrific.

 

[Schad]

I’m sure a socialist such as yourself will totally gloss over the fact that Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and left Palestinians to govern themselves.

"left them to govern themselves" if you ignore that they have taken huge swathes of the West Bank, while also ensuring that Gaza is in no position to govern itself: it is wholly reliant on Israel to provide electricity and potable water, two things Israel regularly withholds.

Also, if you want to know whether I'm a socialist, feel free to ask the actual socialists here, who most certainly don't claim me.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I have been interested in the story about the bloke who has been found guilty of treason for trying to shoot the late Queen with a crossbow and not least because he came from the village where I grew up. It is really perplexing as I think there is a mixture of genuine grievance and pure fantasy muddled up in the motivation for this assination attempt. What really fascinated me was that the story is being reported as a mental health issue and I would concur with this conclusion. However, it did remind me of the accounts of previous attempts on the assination of Queen Victoria where the same kind of conclusions were reached in at least one of the three would-be assassins.

I am really surprise that this story has not gathered more traction and been subject to wall-to-wall coverage as there are so many interesting facets about this case. I believe that the cross bow was bought on line which does not come as a surprise although it is surely something that is of huge concern of this was possible. Not sure what any "normal" person woud want with a cross bow. Then there is also the fact that Chail had been influence by an online chatbot. Again, this is something that needs to be brought up in a thorough discussion. It strikes me that the internet has clearly been instrumental in allowing Chail for fulfil his fantasy. It also underscroed my impression that there is something odd about adults still being in to Star Wars! Maybe that should be made in to another crime!!

The other issue for me is a legal one. I was surprised that none of the papers or sites like the BBC had discusse the fact that Chail had been found guilty of treason. In my opinion, this is something that I feel needs to be discussed because the issue in this case is one of mental health as opposed to a serious attempt to destabilse the state.The more I have thought about this, the more I start to question the logic of having "treason" on the books as a potential capital offence. (I stand corrected if this is no longer the case.) I feel that treason is a really old-fashioned concept and whilst I can see some justification for the charge where somene has worked on the behalf of a foreign state, I have to say that I am disturbed by the idea that it can be levied against an individual with a grudge. I would not disagree that a charges would be necessary in such instances but feel that treason has the unwelcome effect of politicising the offence. It might have been appropriate during a state of war yet I cannot see why it was necessary to charge Chail with this when something like attempted murder would seem more appropriate. I would probably need to look at what is defined as "treason" in English law. However, I feel that if someone can be partly motivated by being obsessed by Star Wars and find themselves charged for treason, we probably need to up grade the law. The bloke clearly had mental health issues and any desire on his part to seek redress for alleged grievances must surely mirror his level of understanding and grasp of reality. I appreciate that criminal cases are presented as being the Crown versus particular individuals yet I am uncomfortable with the idea that this might be the same for treason. In my opinion, it is a charge that needs to be used sparingly and only when a foreign state is involved or in a war situation. If the state is not threatened as a consequence of the crime, I do not feel the charge should be used. I would go as far as arguing that this would also be the case for acts of terrorism where other charges would be more appropriate and treason would politicise the situation. It feels like there is a need to change the law.

Ian, there are no restrictions to buying a crossbow other than you need to be 18. You can buy them online and all you need to do is show proof of age on delivery, or you can walk into a shop, hand over some cash and walk out with it in a bag. It's a crossbow, not a nuke.
I know a few people that use them for vermin control, and a few that use them for back garden target practice like they would an air rifle. I had one as a kid and learnt to shoot it and a few other weapons in the scouts. I've not tried to knock off any monarchs though, yet.

Lots of 'normal' people use weapons for work and leisure, and lots of functioning adults like star wars, a lot. Don't judge them just because you don't understand them


And I don't think there's any choice other than charge him with treason because it's the only sentence available for trying to kill a monarch. Whether he's of sound mind is another matter, but just because he was a confused weirdo doesn't mean he didn't understand exactly what he was doing.
My understanding is that treason can only be carried out by a member of the nation itself which is why it's frowned on I guess and carried a death sentence till the 90s. If it was a foreign government or agent then it wouldn't be treason trying to bag a queen, it would be an act of war or some such.
And it's pretty much the most political crime you can carry out I'd say, trying to kill a head of state but I don't think there is an alternative sentence if its been decided he understood his actions.

 

[Onionman]

Interesting take on the wider implications of Gaza.

I'm including the Tweet because the link in it is to an unpaywalled, freely shared, NYT article so you can actually read the damned thing. (Note that in the brave new Xitter world, article links are just pictures, so the article may not look like it's there but it is. Elmo is such a genius)

https://twitter.com/WarintheFuture/status/1710909865554481414?s=20

 

[Osvaldorama]

"left them to govern themselves" if you ignore that they have taken huge swathes of the West Bank, while also ensuring that Gaza is in no position to govern itself: it is wholly reliant on Israel to provide electricity and potable water, two things Israel regularly withholds.

Also, if you want to know whether I'm a socialist, feel free to ask the actual socialists here, who most certainly don't claim me.

All you have to do when trying to find who is the good guys in this situation is ask yourself the question “what would they do if they were to win the conflict?”

Answers:
Israel - would try and survive peacefully in a democracy. Have proven many times over that they wish to cooperate and strive for peace where possible

Hamas - would try and exterminate every last Jew as they cannot be reasoned or negotiated with

As someone that hates war and wouldn’t claim to know much about the Gaza situation in detail, the above is my North Star when thinking about the situation. More than that, seeing civilians captured and naked bodies paraded through the streets as they are spat on pretty much says all you need to know about Hamas. Anyone that is supporting these deranged lunatics has lost their moral compass.

All in all it’s an absolute ****ing mess and once again the only people who benefit are the military industrial complex. I wish there could be peace

 

[Schad]

Israel - would try and survive peacefully in a democracy. Have proven many times over that they wish to cooperate and strive for peace where possible

Uh, yeah, about that. Beyond the fact that Israelis have been carrying out vicious, unprovoked attacks on Palestinians for the past couple years in order to force them from their homes and allow for further settlements, resulting in hundreds of deaths, Israel won't be a democracy for much longer. There have been months of street protests against the government because they are pushing through a series of reforms that concentrate power in the hands of the executive, something that Netanyahu's former deputy prime minister stated will help to transform Israel into a dictatorship:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/01/isr...tests-against-netanyahu-risks-to-economy.html

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

All you have to do when trying to find who is the good guys in this situation is ask yourself the question “what would they do if they were to win the conflict?”

Answers:
Israel - would try and survive peacefully in a democracy. Have proven many times over that they wish to cooperate and strive for peace where possible

Hamas - would try and exterminate every last Jew as they cannot be reasoned or negotiated with

As someone that hates war and wouldn’t claim to know much about the Gaza situation in detail, the above is my North Star when thinking about the situation. More than that, seeing civilians captured and naked bodies paraded through the streets as they are spat on pretty much says all you need to know about Hamas. Anyone that is supporting these deranged lunatics has lost their moral compass.

All in all it’s an absolute ****ing mess and once again the only people who benefit are the military industrial complex. I wish there could be peace

"Israel - would try and survive peacefully in a democracy. Have proven many times over that they wish to cooperate and strive for peace where possible"

hey Os, you spelled 'Facist apartheid state intent on driving the Palestinian people out of existance and stealing the whole territory' wrong

 

[saintrichie123]

More bollox from the Express.

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