Dr Strangelove (how I learned to stop worrying and love Boris)

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FellTop said:
The idea the opposition cant be judged is wrong in my opinion. You can judge their policies, their behaviour, their standards. Most importantly you can judge whether they have fulfilled their role as opposition party well or not. Officially their role is to scrutinise the work of the government. A job they are paid to do. I would love a job where those paying me said I cant be judged. I dont think they have been very effective as an opposition at all to be honest. Politics in the house of commons is screeching and name calling and they have done that well. There are some decent cross party committees, but not enough. An effective opposition would have brought far more scrutiny. Abstaining is not scrutiny, plausible alternatives are, coherent policy is, doing what you say gives you credibility. All in my opinion anyway. Starmer committed to bring decency back to politics only to then sink to the sort of gutter politics that should be simply banned. It is entirely reasonable, if not edsential, to judge labour on all of these things. When deciding who to vote for surely we judge all local MPs and parliamentary parties before deciding where to put our cross?

The easiest thing is to criticise the govt. They are hopeless and the worst in my time. Personally I am more focussed on where we will be in 2 or 5 or 10 years time. That will depend on Labour almost certainly. They shouldnt be getting a free pass until they cross to the other side of the house. We need to challenge and judge them in opposition, so they can hopefully be better when in govt.
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I agree.

You can judge but they're not currently responsible for the mess we're in ...

... unless you believe the 'weak opposition' daftness.
 
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FellTop said:
The idea the opposition cant be judged is wrong in my opinion. You can judge their policies, their behaviour, their standards. Most importantly you can judge whether they have fulfilled their role as opposition party well or not. Officially their role is to scrutinise the work of the government. A job they are paid to do. I would love a job where those paying me said I cant be judged. I dont think they have been very effective as an opposition at all to be honest. Politics in the house of commons is screeching and name calling and they have done that well. There are some decent cross party committees, but not enough. An effective opposition would have brought far more scrutiny. Abstaining is not scrutiny, plausible alternatives are, coherent policy is, doing what you say gives you credibility. All in my opinion anyway. Starmer committed to bring decency back to politics only to then sink to the sort of gutter politics that should be simply banned. It is entirely reasonable, if not edsential, to judge labour on all of these things. When deciding who to vote for surely we judge all local MPs and parliamentary parties before deciding where to put our cross?

The easiest thing is to criticise the govt. They are hopeless and the worst in my time. Personally I am more focussed on where we will be in 2 or 5 or 10 years time. That will depend on Labour almost certainly. They shouldnt be getting a free pass until they cross to the other side of the house. We need to challenge and judge them in opposition, so they can hopefully be better when in govt.
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Fair points
 
Smug in Boots said:
I agree.

You can judge but they're not currently responsible for the mess we're in ...

... unless you believe the 'weak opposition' daftness.
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I dont blame them for the mess, no. This is speculation but if we hadnt had the Corbyn era the tories would not have had the massive majority and they may have had to show more restraint. Not so much a weak opposition as one that self destructed and gave the tories more than they had earned I would say.

This might be plain wrong on my part, but I suspect some of what they inherited 13 years ago has been a millstone and continues to be. PFI contracts, Iraq legacy, Recession etc. They walked into a mess. I think a level of austerity was essential, but they went too hard and long at it. Post referendum is where it has been woeful for me, not so much what went before. With Brexit and Covid it has probably been one of the most tumultulous periods in british politics, at least over a sustained period. Not all policies have been terrible, but the manner of execution and behaviour consistently has been. I dont know anyone now who will be sad to see them go, and I live in a safe tory seat. Everyone has had enough and thinks it is time for change. Labour are walking into a mess, they are going to need to be strong minded in what they do, and be prepared to be unpopular. We could do with the tories re-inventing themselves as a good opposition quickly, so that labour have to be very good.
 
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FellTop said:
I dont blame them for the mess, no. This is speculation but if we hadnt had the Corbyn era the tories would not have had the massive majority and they may have had to show more restraint. Not so much a weak opposition as one that self destructed and gave the tories more than they had earned I would say.

This might be plain wrong on my part, but I suspect some of what they inherited 13 years ago has been a millstone and continues to be. PFI contracts, Iraq legacy, Recession etc. They walked into a mess. I think a level of austerity was essential, but they went too hard and long at it. Post referendum is where it has been woeful for me, not so much what went before. With Brexit and Covid it has probably been one of the most tumultulous periods in british politics, at least over a sustained period. Not all policies have been terrible, but the manner of execution and behaviour consistently has been. I dont know anyone now who will be sad to see them go, and I live in a safe tory seat. Everyone has had enough and thinks it is time for change. Labour are walking into a mess, they are going to need to be strong minded in what they do, and be prepared to be unpopular. We could do with the tories re-inventing themselves as a good opposition quickly, so that labour have to be very good.
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That's a really well thought out attempt at excusing the Tories for the obvious mess we're in ...

... it's just a question of whether you believe those excuses or not.

I don't.
 
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Smug in Boots said:
That's a really well thought out attempt at excusing the Tories for the obvious mess we're in ...

... it's just a question of whether you believe those excuses or not.

I don't.
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Not that well thought out to be honest. Took about 5 mins. I could spend much more time and effort, but it wouldnt be excusing the tories, it would be taking a long view on politics. Lets be honest, if there wasnt a mess at the end of the last labour govt that needed cleaning up, labour wouldnt have been ousted from power. If you dont think the recession and Iraq war had an impact on tory policy so be it. Some of the 13 years was about responding to what Labour left behind, some of which were directly related to policy choices. If we are going to continually say 13 years if failure we have to have a sense of what 14 years ago looked like, otherwise we fail to understand. As I say, post Brexit it has been hopeless from the tories in my opinion. If you think that is excusing the tories, no dramas, it is not the intention however.

Time for a drink and a bit of music for me.
 
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FellTop said:
Not that well thought out to be honest. Took about 5 mins. I could spend much more time and effort, but it wouldnt be excusing the tories, it would be taking a long view on politics. Lets be honest, if there wasnt a mess at the end of the last labour govt that needed cleaning up, labour wouldnt have been ousted from power. If you dont think the recession and Iraq war had an impact on tory policy so be it. Some of the 13 years was about responding to what Labour left behind, some of which were directly related to policy choices. If we are going to continually say 13 years if failure we have to have a sense of what 14 years ago looked like, otherwise we fail to understand. As I say, post Brexit it has been hopeless from the tories in my opinion. If you think that is excusing the tories, no dramas, it is not the intention however.

Time for a drink and a bit of music for me.
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"Some of the 13 years was about responding to what Labour left behind."

Great, so by your reckoning a Labour government will mean 13 years before we'll hear from you again <laugh>
 
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FellTop said:
I dont blame them for the mess, no. This is speculation but if we hadnt had the Corbyn era the tories would not have had the massive majority and they may have had to show more restraint. Not so much a weak opposition as one that self destructed and gave the tories more than they had earned I would say.

This might be plain wrong on my part, but I suspect some of what they inherited 13 years ago has been a millstone and continues to be. PFI contracts, Iraq legacy, Recession etc. They walked into a mess. I think a level of austerity was essential, but they went too hard and long at it. Post referendum is where it has been woeful for me, not so much what went before. With Brexit and Covid it has probably been one of the most tumultulous periods in british politics, at least over a sustained period. Not all policies have been terrible, but the manner of execution and behaviour consistently has been. I dont know anyone now who will be sad to see them go, and I live in a safe tory seat. Everyone has had enough and thinks it is time for change. Labour are walking into a mess, they are going to need to be strong minded in what they do, and be prepared to be unpopular. We could do with the tories re-inventing themselves as a good opposition quickly, so that labour have to be very good.
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The austerity agenda was misguided, ideological and stifled growth in the economy.
Most of the problems in social care and public services stem from that policy they couldn't wait to implement.

Agree post Brexit it's just got worse and worse- also agree Pfi was a millstone but that doesn't give a free pass to the last 13 years of transferring the countries wealth upwards.
 
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Coastal Dolphins said:
The austerity agenda was misguided, ideological and stifled growth in the economy.
Most of the problems in social care and public services stem from that policy they couldn't wait to implement.

Agree post Brexit it's just got worse and worse- also agree Pfi was a millstone but that doesn't give a free pass to the last 13 years of transferring the countries wealth upwards.
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I am in no way giving them a free pass on wealth transfer. In fact I dont think I am giving them a free pass on anything. I mentioned a recession, war on iraq, and PFI. I believe all needed recovery. I also said I think they went too far and deep. I think we are much closer in opinion on this than you might imagine.
 
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FellTop said:
I am in no way giving them a free pass on wealth transfer. In fact I dont think I am giving them a free pass on anything. I mentioned a recession, war on iraq, and PFI. I believe all needed recovery. I also said I think they went too far and deep. I think we are much closer in opinion on this than you might imagine.
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Things don't happen in isolation though. With regard to wealth transfer, I believe that much of the recent increase in wealth held by the top 1% has been, by commentators on both left and right, put down to rising prices and corporations taking advantage of that. Is that the fault of the Tories? Well, they could have introduced legislation to prevent that being taken advantage. But the acknowledged causes of those price rises are Covid and war in Ukraine which the Tories or any other party in this country could never have had any control over. Its too simplistic to simply say that the Tories are to blame for this without considering the circumstances that have led to this increase in the rate of wealth transfer to the top 1%.
 
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rooch 3 said:
I was going to vote for the greens but then read some of their policies, more loony than loonies. So it looks like Lib Dem’s and if they go for another referendum just prey they lose again.
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On the contrary I like the Green policies. Universal basic income being one of my favourites
 
The Norton Cat said:
Things don't happen in isolation though. With regard to wealth transfer, I believe that much of the recent increase in wealth held by the top 1% has been, by commentators on both left and right, put down to rising prices and corporations taking advantage of that. Is that the fault of the Tories? Well, they could have introduced legislation to prevent that being taken advantage. But the acknowledged causes of those price rises are Covid and war in Ukraine which the Tories or any other party in this country could never have had any control over. Its too simplistic to simply say that the Tories are to blame for this without considering the circumstances that have led to this increase in the rate of wealth transfer to the top 1%.
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They are directly responsible for huge waste in Covid and for already rich friends and colleagues being the beneficiaries and freezing tax thresholds for top earners and reducing in 2017, gas storage off the Yorkshire coast, which accounted for two-thirds of our gas capacity, which was closed and not replaced, and not changing non dom status and refusing non dom status and refusing to windfall tax unethical profits at the time of national crisis, and choosing a trade deal that has left us out of pocket and undermining democracy and international relations abs reducing benefits for the most vulnerable and rejected inflationary pay increases . But aye, other than that you’re right, the war and covid made us poorer and the rich richer.
 
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Pure River Slut said:
They are directly responsible for huge waste in Covid and for already rich friends and colleagues being the beneficiaries and freezing tax thresholds for top earners and reducing in 2017, gas storage off the Yorkshire coast, which accounted for two-thirds of our gas capacity, which was closed and not replaced, and not changing non dom status and refusing non dom status and refusing to windfall tax unethical profits at the time of national crisis, and choosing a trade deal that has left us out of pocket and undermining democracy and international relations abs reducing benefits for the most vulnerable and rejected inflationary pay increases . But aye, other than that you’re right, the war and covid made us poorer and the rich richer.
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And the people who went out of their way to defraud taxpayers over PPE?
Changing non-dom status raises a drop in the ocean, and would likely end up with less in the bank overall as individuals move their money and themselves elsewhere.
A lot of the companies making unethical profits don't make them in the UK so we can't tax that.

All your points aren't as black and white as you'd like them to be. But because we're all encouraged to regurgitate the soundbites rather than look any deeper into the story for fear we might learn something that contradicts the narrative they want us to swallow....
 
Pure River Slut said:
They are directly responsible for huge waste in Covid and for already rich friends and colleagues being the beneficiaries and freezing tax thresholds for top earners and reducing in 2017, gas storage off the Yorkshire coast, which accounted for two-thirds of our gas capacity, which was closed and not replaced, and not changing non dom status and refusing non dom status and refusing to windfall tax unethical profits at the time of national crisis, and choosing a trade deal that has left us out of pocket and undermining democracy and international relations abs reducing benefits for the most vulnerable and rejected inflationary pay increases . But aye, other than that you’re right, the war and covid made us poorer and the rich richer.
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Lowering taxation is a fairly normal Conservative approach. The theory behind that is sound even if it doesn't work in practice.
Reduction of our gas capacity wouldn't have been as much of an issue if energy prices hadn't risen.
They've clearly made some poor decisions but in any analysis the impact of the non-controllable factors (Covid and war) is impossible to ignore and we know this because other economies have been affected by these things.
 
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