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Off Topic Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Southampton' started by ChilcoSaint, Feb 23, 2016.

  1. Ian Thumwood

    Ian Thumwood Well-Known Member

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    I am surprised that no-one has mentioned the passing of Nigel Lawson in here today. I had forgotten just how significant he was as a politician in the 1980s and instrumental in Margaret Thatcher's drive to push the economy towards the open market.

    I had a discussion many years ago with someone who was much older than me who had argued that the 1960s were the most important decade of the 20th century and she would not accept that the changes to society instigated in the 1980s under the likes of Reagan and Thatcher would have far wider consequences. I would have to say that I feel vindicated these days at the double whammy of looser control of the markets and the emergence of compiter technology has ensured that capitalism has become a beast we can no longer control. People very much serve the ecomony as opposed to the economy serving people. I would argue that the blame for this very much lies with the likes of Lawson and his ilk with capitalism very mich meaning a race to the bottom and one that is taking the ecology along with it. Thanks to Lawson we now have seen public services put in the hands of the private sector with the impact of fewer services that barely function and usually both commercially unviable and outside of the price range for many normal citizens. Privatisation has seen people pay more for a worse service and this was largely done under Lawson's watch in the UK.

    I last saw Nigel Lawson on "Question Time" a few years ago where he cut a ridiculous figure arguing about the benefits of Brexit whilst living in France and arguing that global warming was exagerated. With the passage of time he had become a foolish old man and , like so many people from the political Right, utterly ridiculous.
     
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  2. Osvaldorama

    Osvaldorama Well-Known Member

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    I am pro smaller government.

    I think the natural tendency is for governments to grow over time, as they accumulate more power and steal more wealth from the populous.

    In turn, this allows them to become more corrupt and steal yet more wealth from the populous.

    However, I am not an anarchist and I believe we will always need a government and centralised way of organising society. It’s just that the government needs to be kept in check and used for the key functions of security, law, order, justice and making things better for it’s citizens. We are long past that point in the west, and the government overreach and corruption has never been so blatant.

    One of the very bare minimum requirements of a government keeping a society safe is being able to identify who is within that society. You’re fabricating the idea that this increases government power. They are using IDs which are already issued for this, not creating new ones. A passport or driving license is totally fine and within the bounds of what I consider acceptable identification
     
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  3. San Tejón

    San Tejón Well-Known Member

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    I have mentioned before about YouGov polls that I am sent and how the respondents seem to be a predominantly anti Tory group, except for when the questions are about refugees and migrants.
    Today’s poll was generally about Braverman’s comments about Pakistani grooming gangs and again the support for the Tories comments were considerably higher than when questions are about their general “policies”.
    Culture wars and division rules.
     
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  4. San Tejón

    San Tejón Well-Known Member

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    An interesting video on Starmer. I have to say that I am not a fan of the man, but as it says in the video if he wins he will be the lesser of two evils, but we shouldn’t be voting for that.
     
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  5. tomw24

    tomw24 Well-Known Member
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    Interesting that Trump has been charged with felonies and not misdemeanours. He could genuinely end up in prison. I would have thought misdemeanours would be easier to secure a conviction on so hopefully the prosecutors have got a very strong case.
     
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  6. Osvaldorama

    Osvaldorama Well-Known Member

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    They are essentially misdemeanours though.

    By this standard they should indict Biden and everyone at the department of Justice for covering up Hunter bidens laptop.

    They should also arrest everyone involved with the fake Russia collusion story, plus Hilary Clinton for creating the “dossier that undermined the 2016 election”. Also Bill Clinton for lying to Congress, etc etc etc.

    This whole thing is so obviously politically motivated to try and stop him running for re-election that it’s hilarious
     
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  7. Ian Thumwood

    Ian Thumwood Well-Known Member

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    I am surprised with the amount of fuss regarding charges which are effectively creative accounting. In the UK, a politician in this situation would have the whip withdrawn and be forced to step down without this kind of media circus. Given the consevative nature of mich of his support, it is surprising that they have not made as much fuss regarding the fact Trump had an ex-marital affair whilst his wife was looking after a new-born child nor with a porn actress.

    The attempt to influence the election result in Georgia strikes me as the charge which is the most serious. Most reasonable people would be appalled by this. Any case brought about in conjunction with the riots on 6th January seems tenuous as I am not sure how you can say anything more than the fact that this event was influenced by Trump and not directed by him. It does strike me as strange too that no one has really challenged Trump as to why he has notmore readily disconnected himsef with these events.

    I think these cases says a lot about America and why we are different from them. In the UK, the people would be loving the fact that someone who was rich and saw themselves as being above the law was being brought down. Even the most Trump-like of British politicians, Boris Johnson, was eventually brought down and the fact that people have eventually realised he was a comprehensive liar seems to show that you can only get away with this for so long in UK politics. The election and ultimate trials of Donald Trump have diminished America's standing in the world and hopefully we be a wake up call to people in the UK that the Americans are held in too much esteem.
     
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  8. The Ides of March

    The Ides of March Well-Known Member

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    How on earth can You support a man who. is a bully? Who has his bodyguards eject reporters who are less than sympathetic towards him, who shouts down people who argue with him? Jeb Bush wiped the floor with him.when both were interviewed. Trump.is nothing but a thug!
     
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  9. Schad

    Schad Well-Known Member

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    How many times does it need to be pointed out that Hunter Biden's laptop happened during the Trump administration? President Biden and his DOJ couldn't cover anything up because he wasn't president and it wasn't his DOJ. Unless you want to prosecute Biden for his crimes against the space-time continuum, this makes zero sense.

    Also, Hillary Clinton didn't create anything. Fun note: the first significant politician that Steele gave the dossier to wasn't even a Democrat. It was John McCain. And the reason I remember this is that he gave it to John McCain at the annual Security Forum in the city where I live.

    Trump's DOJ also did investigate the Steele dossier. Even appointed a special prosecutor. That special prosecutor investigated for more than two years and failed to get a single conviction (he charged two people; they were acquitted because the charges were idiotic). Ironically, one of the things that his investigation turned up was that one of the people he charged with lying about the origins of the dossier (Igor Danchenko) was considered to be an extremely valuable and credible source of information...by Trump's FBI.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 5, 2023
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  10. ......loading......

    ......loading...... 25 undefeated

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    I am so glad I am not a fanboy for someone who uses his wealth to have sex with young women, then cover it up; who boasts about grabbing women by the pussy; who openly lusts over his own daughter; who puts his children in positions of power; who abuses his position to enrich his hotel business; who launches attacks against children on Twitter; and who whips up violent political revolt.
    To be a fan of such a man mean you have switched off your moral code.
     
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  11. Archers Road

    Archers Road Urban Spaceman

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    And yet he’s a hero to millions of fundamentalist Christians. Beyond weird.
     
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  12. ......loading......

    ......loading...... 25 undefeated

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    Fundamentalist Christians tend to be controlling abusive arseholes too. Anyone who uses a book to justify their sense of moral superiority is not a good person.
     
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  13. Gregm1988

    Gregm1988 Well-Known Member

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    If you bothered to consume media from a range across to political spectrum you will find those more on the “far left” (by US standards at least) do not actually object to your point in principle. Mainly that if other politicians including ex presidents committed crimes, no matter how minor, they should indeed be held to account. Their response to Clinton being charged would be “good”.

    Do not make the mistake of assuming everyone is as blindly partisan as the right wingers you get your news from (note: in this instance, to be very very clear, I am calling your sources blindly partisan. Not you)

    As to your examples though - it has already been pointed out that that many aren’t even crimes or weren’t performed by who you say they were. If you think the President/Government at the time was responsible for covering up the Hunter Biden story then that is another charge for Trump. I gather you don’t actually want that

    Incidentally - why are you ok with someone who started a nakedly political attempt to make his supporters believe Hillary was going to be arrested and locked up but have a problem with the those tactics being applied to him? It can’t be due to the nature of the crimes because she went through hours of Republican lead committees and investigations and was not found to have done anything to justify getting the law involved. Trump simply cannot complain about attempts to weaponise the justice system against enemies. He doesn’t have a leg to stand on
     
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  14. Archers Road

    Archers Road Urban Spaceman

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    Well I’m not getting into any of that. But they quite clearly haven’t read the book.
     
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  15. Gregm1988

    Gregm1988 Well-Known Member

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    They haven’t been charged as misdemeanours though. The prosecution will be attempting to prove in court that they are crimes. The defence that they are not. I’m not going to pretend to know the New York legal system well enough to be able to guess in advance of the trial. And I have a slight suspicion you don’t either - what with you being U.K. based and as far as I understand not a lawyer.
     
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  16. ......loading......

    ......loading...... 25 undefeated

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    The word ‘Fundamentalist’ is such a misnoma. They don’t believe in the fundaments. They believe in all the toxic nasty crap instead.
     
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  17. StJabbo1

    StJabbo1 Well-Known Member

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    Trump's a wrongun, LOCK HIM UP.
     
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  18. Le Tissier's Laces

    Le Tissier's Laces Well-Known Member

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    In fairness to Os, he's never claimed to be a Trump fan, he's pretty consistently said that he thinks he's an odious man.

    My take on it is slightly different - much as I'd love to see him hoisted by his own petard and humiliated - I mean, he really, really is a hateful individual - I actually think bringing these charges, even if they're minutely politically motivated (as opposed to legally/morally) is a really daft move. The worst thing for Trump is to be ignored and forgotten, and he was well on the way to becoming and old man shouting at a cloud. He was becoming irrelevant, and was likely to be holed away in the dreadful Mar-a-Lago until the joyful day when he carks it.

    By bringing these misdemeanours/crimes into play now, all that's actually happened is it's given him and his equally mad support base fuel, and the potential that has become real, that he beats this and is the next president. That was never, ever a possibility before all this. It's all actually incredibly unnecessary.
     
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  19. ......loading......

    ......loading...... 25 undefeated

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    I don’t think it is anywhere near so complicated. He has committed crimes and is being tried for them. That is the law. It isn’t politics.

    Also, from what I understand he is going to be hit with far stronger legal charges over the next year which will make these almost irrelevant.
     
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  20. Le Tissier's Laces

    Le Tissier's Laces Well-Known Member

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    You may well be right, and in which case, absolutely fair enough. I just think if there was an opportunity not to have this circus, it would have benefitted everyone, as it would have meant a Trump-free future.
     
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