The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 10th January)

[ellandback]

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Good Morning. It's Tuesday 10th January, and here are the latest headlines from Elland Road


Rutter ready to board plane - destination ER

Baring a last minute disaster, Georginio Rutter is set to become the most expensive player in Leeds Utd's history. Only fine print (and a rigorous medical) stand in his way, after it was revealed that the 20yo already agreed personal terms with Victor Orta. The fee varies, depending on what sources you believe, but is widely speculated to be between £30m - £35m, smashing the previous record set by Rodrigo in 2020 (£27m). According to Phil Hay:-

"Last night, sources in Germany were indicating to The Athletic that a deal with Leeds was on course for completion following talks over a fee which promised to break the transfer record at Elland Road set by the £27million ($32.9m) spent on Rodrigo in 2020."

"Rutter was actively pushing for the move and ready to board a plane. On Leeds’ shortlist of strikers for the January window, his had been the most exciting name, the one that stood out as a highly-calculated investment. Rutter has been regularly referenced as one of the brightest youngsters in the Bundesliga, an all-rounder of a forward in a way which would naturally appeal to Leeds."

"There is a view in Yorkshire that what this team need, and what they have needed since Patrick Bamford’s body began to fail him, is a bona fide No 9, but so many of their attacking targets — those they land and those they miss out on — offer versatility as part of the package. Neither Cody Gakpo nor Charles De Ketelaere were out-and-out No 9s or narrow in their skill set. Willy Gnonto, their last-gasp arrival in August, can play anywhere across the line. Few of the names the club go after are quite as typecast as Bamford."

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Are Leeds fans more unforgiving with Marsch than Bielsa

After a dire 45 minutes of football, the travelling Leeds contingent made their feelings known as ruckus boos echoed around the Cardiff City Stadium from the away contingent last Sunday. It's not the first time the Leeds faithful have expressed their displeasure during Marsch's reign. Prior to the World Cup, large sections of the Elland Road faithful were seen showing their indignation at the standard of football being served up to them.

Leeds have some of the best fans in the World, but they don't suffer fools gladly. During the final months of Bielsa's tenure, we were served up some of the worst football Elland Road has seen in years, yet the crowd remained fully behind the Argentine. I remember Phil Hay conducting a poll (early January 2022) asking whether Bielsa should get the boot. Only 2% wanted to see the Argentine go. It seemed Bielsa could do no wrong, even when opponents started racking up cricket scores against them, many fans stayed convinced that El-Loco would pull off a Houdini trick saving West Yorkshire's finest from relegation.

Why don't the crowd get behind Marsch in the same way they did Bielsa? Has the harsh reality of a relegation dog fight harden up the Leeds fans? Has the crowd temperament affected the players confidence?

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Is Marsch in a lose-lose situation

Like it or not, but when Jesse Marsch took the Elland Road hot heat, he inherited a squad, mainly made up of ageing, injury prone and substandard players. Even though he has worked wonders in resurrecting Rodrigo's career, he still faces a monumental task to keep Leeds up with what he has to work with.

Stripped of his best players (Raphinha and Phillips), Marsch has bought in six replacements, which for the most part have more than lived up to their price tags. We've seen Dan James, Tyler Roberts and Jamie Shackleton move to lessor clubs in the expectation of first team football, yet have failed to make much of an impact. Patrick Bamford and Adam Forshaw continue to spend more time with the physio, than they do on the pitch, whilst the defence are just not good enough for the top flight.

If Marsch keeps Leeds up, he has done what is expected of him, if he fails, he joins a long list of Managers before him out of his depth. Is the job too big for Marsch. Is he in a lose-lose situation?

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[Mr Wolves-White]

Morning all

The price for Rutter really doesn't sit right with me. I don't know how a 20 year old with 2 goals all season is worth over £30 million.

 

[bucks_is_leeds]

I think the expectation for this season was midtable witht the powers that be stating its impossible we are in a relegation battle this year, so just staying up isn't or shouldnt be job done. We've under achieved if that's the case, even if the target may have been unrealistic

Morning all

 

[NostradEmus]

Rutter won't score fr Leeds in the Premier League this season. Month avi if anyone wants it.

Fans don't like Marsch. Maybe cos he's a mouthy Yank, maybe cos he replaced Bielsa, maybe the odd person sees his tactics as naive (thats what people hide behind anyway). At the end of Biesa alot of noise was about defending set pieces, scoring from set pieces, not being as open through the middle. Marsch has fixed alot of the things that needed fixing and given us other issues without Phillips and Raphinha. He's also not had his best player in Sinisterra available. He's not perfect but he certainly gets a rough ride from the fans. Saying up this season was the main aim if fans are honest with themselves and so far he is ahead of the curve. It's gonna be a hard few months coming up.

 

[ristac]

Morning all

There are two different Leeds supporters on Twitter with a decent following and both seem very level headed. One lives in Hoffenheim, the offer follows German football.

They both rate Rutter extremely highly, one of them was saying back in July Leeds should be looking at players like Rutter. They both say he has fantastic pace, a good crosser of the ball and loves taking players on and can hold up the ball fantastically well.

They’re opinions have made this fee sit a bit easier with me, I just hope we’ve got this one right. My issue is still Jesse, I have zero faith in him, under a different coach Rutter might flourish, under Jesse he could be destroyed

Are Leeds More Unforgiving With Marsch - Totally the opposite, I can’t understand how much rope he’s being given. Wait until the transfer window, wait until preseason, wait until December, wait until he gets his players.

He’s ruined Aaronson and Roca, Kristensen is worse than Drameh and Ayling, he’s made 8 signings, he can’t work with what he inherited, he thinks buying up ex RB players will work, I know it’s all opinion but I’m amazed he has the backing of any Leeds supporter if I’m being honest.

Bielsa had a great first season in the PL injuries cost him in season two as well as stubbornness, nobody was saying those players were crap in our first season back. Now those players who won promotion and did so well in season one are not good enough as it fits the Jesse fan club and excuses.

The ones not good enough, Kristensen, Roca and Aaronson sit on the top branch of the tree. Maybe we did get promoted with players who were exceeding expectations due to the quality of the coaching from Bielsa, we didn’t have many who went backwards under him, most improved. You can’t say the same about 2 wins in 16 Jesse

 

[NostradEmus]

I think the expectation for this season was midtable witht the powers that be stating its impossible we are in a relegation battle this year, so just staying up isn't or shouldnt be job done. We've under achieved if that's the case, even if the target may have been unrealistic

Morning all

Morning.

We barely stayed up last season. We sold our best two players. Our best attacking threat in Sinisterra has hardly featured. Mid table is optimistic imo.

 

[NostradEmus]

Also, can someone tell me where Rutter will play? He won't displace Rodrigo at 9. Sinisterra will come back soon we hope on one wing. Summerville and Gnonto have created or scored loads over the last 6 or 7 games. Where does this **** fit in?

Have we signed another winger?

 

[milkyboy]

Bielsa had plenty of well-deserved credit in the bank, Marsch doesn't. There was also this mysterious crazy genius thing about him that created an almost cult like following. What is it about tough hard-nosed professional yorkshiremen that makes them go doey-eyed and drop their pants at the first sign of a latin accent? Even constructive criticism got aggressively shot down. He was going to be a tough act to follow for anyone.. especially as in the end, after all the great things he'd done, he left behind a dispirited and beaten look squad.

There was still a core of championship players at the club, who had risen above that by being part of a system under bielsa... a system that no-one else on the planet uses. Without that, they're championship players again. We sell our two best players and buy a bunch of (by PL) standards relatively cheap imports.

Our manager is mouthy and American, that's two strikes against him (see what i did there). So he has a number of obstacles to overcome both from a team and a PR perspective. Can he do it? Plenty have made there minds up... actually plenty made there minds up before he joined and exude confirmation bias at every opportunity. For me, his tenure proper, started in August, (last year was a desperate patch up job... and a successful one in the end which seems to be forgotten). With the world cup we're not half way through the season yet. Barring complete freefall any manager deserves a year. We've been competitive in almost every game. Without the kamikaze defending we'd be solid midtable. We're not great by any means but we're not dreadful.

 

[milkyboy]

Also, can someone tell me where Rutter will play? He won't displace Rodrigo at 9. Sinisterra will come back soon we hope on one wing. Summerville and Gnonto have created or scored loads over the last 6 or 7 games. Where does this **** fit in?

Have we signed another winger?

he's left footed with a turn of pace and a good defensive work rate... i think we have our answer

 

[Doc]

Morning all

Firstly Rutter will be worth every Penny in my opinion and is a sound investment. You have a player who can play at 7,8,9,10 and 11, young, dynamic, explosive and skilfull. The record price will be if he reaches all the bonus targets which will include selection for full National team, scoring 20 goals in a season and plenty more. The base fee will be £26m and then the add ons…..

The Marsch debate will rage on until the fans see an improvement on last season. The fans see no change except in week to week incomprehensible tactics/style. The argument about losing our best 2 players is spurious at best because Bielsa and the team didn’t have Kalvin Phillips when he was needed and Bielsa also had a sulky Raphinha at that time who went through his worst form. Raphinha came good at the end for Marsch and in fairness to Marsch he has had every player he requested. I actually think we are a stronger team this season with better players but as yet have shown little signs of fulfilling their promise. The squad valuation has Leeds at 13th and the Leeds spend at 16th, so the reality is that fans should expect the team to finish higher up the league than where we sit right now. Marsch right now has much to prove and he is now under a shed load of pressure. I really hope he can turn things around and I believe every Leeds fan wants that too

 

[NostradEmus]

Do we expect Rutter to play instead of Aaronson?

Genuinely don't see where he fits.

 

[Mr Wolves-White]

Also, can someone tell me where Rutter will play? He won't displace Rodrigo at 9. Sinisterra will come back soon we hope on one wing. Summerville and Gnonto have created or scored loads over the last 6 or 7 games. Where does this **** fit in?

Have we signed another winger?

From watching Ger Lynch and Connor McGillian on Youtube he's coming in as an out-and-out striker, a number 9 but the problem is he likes playing out wide.

 

[Doc]

Milky your remark about Yorkshiremen loving a S.American accent is a bit tongue in cheek I hope and the way you threw in some casual racism too about a gobby yank etc. the truth is mate just like the other yank who accuses us all of racism and how the Brits can’t stand the thought of having a black princess bollox. The truth is the whole of the UK was fully behind Harry and his wife just like every Leeds fan was fully behind the appointment of Marsch. i think we all like fighting talk but there needs to be more than talk and so far we have seen little of walking the walk.

 

[NostradEmus]

Have we signed Prince Harry?

 

[oldschool]

Have we signed Prince Harry?

he'll come with a lot of baggage

 

[Doc]

The average comment from the majority of fans

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[milkyboy]

Also, can someone tell me where Rutter will play? He won't displace Rodrigo at 9. Sinisterra will come back soon we hope on one wing. Summerville and Gnonto have created or scored loads over the last 6 or 7 games. Where does this **** fit in?

Have we signed another winger?

It's a fair point... from what i can gather he's really direct competition for rodrigo, but more bamford in style. They tend to see these guys as playing anywhere across the front 3 though, so could also be alternative for gnonto, jimmy, willy. His biggest attribute is his ball carrying so he can definitely play wide. He also happens to be 2 footed, which is useful. Meant to work really hard off the ball too. Only thing (apart from goals!) that's lacking for the perfect no 9.. is his back to goal stuff is a ok but not great - and that's the bamford bit we miss in terms of getting the ball up the pitch.

There you go, a 5 minute youtube vid watched and a couple of articles read, and another milkboy scouting report (TM) completed.

 

[Doc]

Back on the Rutter price, this maybe helps

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[milkyboy]

The average comment from the majority of fans

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If you read the responses to that and polls elsewhere it seems pretty evenly divided between those who want him out yesterday, and those who think he deserves some slack/the season at it.

 

[ristac]

Do we expect Rutter to play instead of Aaronson?

Genuinely don't see where he fits.

I'd drop Aaronson for any of those that were on the bench against Cardiff

This is a big signing that has potential but like I said when we were first linked, why are we spending so much on a front line player when other areas of the pitch seem far more important.

I hope Jesse has a position earmarked for him and it isn't going to be a case of shoe horning him in simply based on value

I think if he arrives, it will spell the end of Jack, when everyone is fit, I think we'll see Sinisterra, Rodrigo and Rutter the first names down meaning one place left for Gnonto or Summerville, I am not saying I agree, just how I see it unfolding