Off Topic The Nurses

[rowley]

Maybe so, but we're already seeing the domino effect of underpaying nurses. More than 40,000 nurses left the profession last year. Plenty now go abroad where the pay is 2-3 times higher as well. Less nurses means more pressure on the ones remaining and makes retention even harder.

It costs an average of £9k a year to do a degree - a nursing degree takes 3 years. So the average nurse is coming out of university with £27k debt and after working in their role for 5 years is earning about £33k a year. For this they're working ridiculous hours under huge pressure and with a massive understaffing issue.

Less people want to go into nursing than before and more of them are considering leaving than ever. If you won't pay them well enough to retain them and recruit more, how will you stop the system from getting worse?

True up to a point. But Nurses work shifts, as do many people. And I can take you to a hospital in the North East, probably not the only one, where some nurses refuse to work more than sixteen hours a week because it " affects their benefits". Trained, qualified nurses by the way. An insane situation.

Nothing is black and white, not all Nurses want to strike, and not all do.

There will be a deal, but IMO, the management of the NHS, some of whom are on absurdly whopping salaries should be in the front line over this, and getting rid of some of them, along with the tens of millions wasted on diversity tsars, equality officers and countless other non clinical staff would help.

 

[rowley]

They aren’t really after 19% that’s a figure plucked from the sky, they will settle for 8 and will be chuffed to bits

The figure comes from 8% plus inflation of11%. We'd all like it.

 

[Chunksafc]

True up to a point. But Nurses work shifts, as do many people. And I can take you to a hospital in the North East, probably not the only one, where some nurses refuse to work more than sixteen hours a week because it " affects their benefits". Trained, qualified nurses by the way. An insane situation.

Nothing is black and white, not all Nurses want to strike, and not all do.

There will be a deal, but IMO, the management of the NHS, some of whom are on absurdly whopping salaries should be in the front line over this, and getting rid of some of them, along with the tens of millions wasted on diversity tsars, equality officers and countless other non clinical staff would help.

Whilst broadly agreeing with your post, the clinical management levels have actually gone down in the past 2 years.
The countless other non clerical staff such as porters, cleaners, admin assistants are needed to do enable the nurses to concentrate on their primary roles.

If you want to start saving money in the NHS then start going after the private companies that can pretty much charge what they like for services / staff / PPE etc all enabled by every government over the last 30 years.

I see the stress my sister is under in her role as Matron for her trust, I see her frustration that she can't get enough nurses to provide the care her and her teams want to give.

Focus on the 19% all you like, but there is more to the nurses having to take this action than what they get paid each month

 

[Chip]

I would be happy to see the average pay rise for MPs and nurses over the last 10 years, at least we would see the balance of who’s had what.

MPs set their own pay and awarded themselves 10% not that long ago, 10% of what is already a much larger salary than a nurse gets. There must be something inherently wrong with a service that has over 10% vacancy rate, where people are leaving in droves to work in sectors other than the one they have trained for years to work in.

 

[flandersmackem]

MPs set their own pay and awarded themselves 10% not that long ago, 10% of what is already a much larger salary than a nurse gets. There must be something inherently wrong with a service that has over 10% vacancy rate, where people are leaving in droves to work in sectors other than the one they have trained for years to work in.

This is spot on....I would be interested to find out say over the last 15 years...how much (as a percentage) have MP's salaries risen against those in the NHS. The priorities in the UK are completely f ucked up, 19% may well be too much, but surely for what these people did during the pandemic and the lack of pay rises over the years, they deserve a decent living wage

 

[Chip]

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Look at that rise in MP pay 2014-2015. What was inflation that year? Yet the country can't possibly afford double digit rises now but it was fine when inflation was around 2%?

They are bullshitting us all and we continue to suck it up and join the race to the bottom mentality they want us to have. Workers begrudging other workers a few quid a year because they haven't got quite as much while the rich get richer and our overlords set their own pay with little comment.

 

[Gordon Armstrong]

Whilst I sympathise with them, and I appreciate their efforts especially throughout the last couple of years, the average salary for NHS nurses is apparently £35,000c, which, when compared to Asda staff or any retailer floor staff, for example, is a pretty decent living wage in my opinion

 

[Chip]

I think that inflation plus five percent is fine when inflation is what it's been for the past fifteen years. Inflation plus five percent making it nineteen percent in total is ambitious, to say the least. I also know the government are stalling until inflation goes down so they can look like they've given what they were asked for.

We'd end up in a situation where the nurses are alright, but everyone else is out on strike waiting for their nineteen percent.

Just meet in the middle and get it sorted.

For any meeting anywhere there has to be a discussion. Hard when the Government are refusing to talk. Harder still when all they do is stir division in the media.

 

[Chip]

The figure comes from 8% plus inflation of11%. We'd all like it.

Puts them back where they should have been had their wages matched inflation from 2012 to 2022. Without the benefit of 10 years of fair pay rises.

As I previously said we need to get away from this mentality, everyone should demand fairness not begrudge other workers because they are making those demands and standing up for themselves. The figure being quoted everywhere is a bit disingenuous anyway as the initial demand was made when inflation was half what it is now. But the media love stirring the **** and creating division. The initial demand was 5% above the CPI rate of inflation which was around 6 to 7% back then, and is currently running at 14% (hence 19% quoted everywhere).

 

[Chunksafc]

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Interesting article

 

[123Daveyboy]

They aren’t really after 19% that’s a figure plucked from the sky, they will settle for 8 and will be chuffed to bits

Well if what you say is correct. perhaps they should have set a more realistic percentage figure and then maybe the government may have been more open to negotiate on wages. eg 12%.and then settle on 8.

 

[FellTop]

Whilst broadly agreeing with your post, the clinical management levels have actually gone down in the past 2 years.
The countless other non clerical staff such as porters, cleaners, admin assistants are needed to do enable the nurses to concentrate on their primary roles.

If you want to start saving money in the NHS then start going after the private companies that can pretty much charge what they like for services / staff / PPE etc all enabled by every government over the last 30 years.

I see the stress my sister is under in her role as Matron for her trust, I see her frustration that she can't get enough nurses to provide the care her and her teams want to give.

Focus on the 19% all you like, but there is more to the nurses having to take this action than what they get paid each month

Great post mate. I think it is the use of the PFI that has allowed private companies to bid for these contracts? That was brought in under Lamont but as I understand it Blairs government went hard at it. I always thought it was a partial privatisation, the amount of those deals that were struck. Some of the numbers I read about were eye watering and some contracts were supposedly for very long periods. Some of the real costs of those deals, reportedly anyway, are very high. Like you say it would be really worth looking at those legacy deals to see if anything can be done.

 

[rooch 3]

Whilst I sympathise with them, and I appreciate their efforts especially throughout the last couple of years, the average salary for NHS nurses is apparently £35,000c, which, when compared to Asda staff or any retailer floor staff, for example, is a pretty decent living wage in my opinion

I don’t think it takes 4 years to learn to stack toilet rolls.

 

[Chunksafc]

Whilst I sympathise with them, and I appreciate their efforts especially throughout the last couple of years, the average salary for NHS nurses is apparently £35,000c, which, when compared to Asda staff or any retailer floor staff, for example, is a pretty decent living wage in my opinion

It's not just the pay that's the issue. They can't retain staff causing more pressure on those that stay.

And with the greatest respect to shop workers, they don't have to pass a degree and at the end of it have around £20k of debt to work in Asda.

That's before you consider little things like the NHS staff have to pay to park at the hospital they work at, which isn't cheap and they don't get that back

 

[Sunderpitt]

Great post mate. I think it is the use of the PFI that has allowed private companies to bid for these contracts? That was brought in under Lamont but as I understand it Blairs government went hard at it. I always thought it was a partial privatisation, the amount of those deals that were struck. Some of the numbers I read about were eye watering and some contracts were supposedly for very long periods. Some of the real costs of those deals, reportedly anyway, are very high. Like you say it would be really worth looking at those legacy deals to see if anything can be done.

IIRC the working of PFIs was always likely to be a ticking time bomb.

How come the tories are not trumpeting the 50 new hospitals any more.

The number of beds, nurses and doctors per 1,000 of the population in England, compared with other main European countries is way down.

My understanding of the 19% claim is that it puts nurses back into the same position they were when the Tories took office in 2010.

If we want to kick start economic growth in this country, give the lower paid an increase to what they were in 2010 in real terms.

 

[Chunksafc]

Great post mate. I think it is the use of the PFI that has allowed private companies to bid for these contracts? That was brought in under Lamont but as I understand it Blairs government went hard at it. I always thought it was a partial privatisation, the amount of those deals that were struck. Some of the numbers I read about were eye watering and some contracts were supposedly for very long periods. Some of the real costs of those deals, reportedly anyway, are very high. Like you say it would be really worth looking at those legacy deals to see if anything can be done.

The NHS has been used as a political football for years and years. My mam and dad both worked in it from leaving school. Dad ended up quite high up and the stress he was under was unbelievable, when he retired after his second heart attack they replaced his role with 3 people, all on more than he earned.

My mam worked as a cancer nurse, I remember every Christmas the staff would decorate the ward out of their own pocket as the trust couldn't / wouldn't pay. That was 30 years ago.

My sister trained as a nurse and has worked hard to get to where she is today within the nhs, she has 2 days off between now and the new year, the same as she had last year as they are so short staffed.

When the NHS goes (and it will by stealth) it will be missed more than people realise

 

[rooch 3]

Barclay is now saying the ambulance drivers are putting lives at risk, forgets to mention patients are waiting up to 24 hours in ambulances before they are seen and the drivers haven’t even gone on strike yet, the man’s a prize c unt who is taking over Hunt’s job of being that.

 

[Chunksafc]

Barclay is now saying the ambulance drivers are putting lives at risk, forgets to mention patients are waiting up to 24 hours in ambulances before they are seen and the drivers haven’t even gone on strike yet, the man’s a prize c unt who is taking over Hunt’s job of being that.

It's the start of the narrative to turn the public against them.

The press where at it already with the nurses.

Divide and conquer

 

[rooch 3]

It's the start of the narrative to turn the public against them.

The press where at it already with the nurses.

Divide and conquer

I believe they will fail miserably this time round, there seems to be only a few lads left on here who haven’t seen through the s hit show the Tories are and I don’t suppose they ever will. I would like to point out that doesn’t mean I believe in Labour they are as big a pile of s hite as the Tories.

 

[rowley]

Whilst broadly agreeing with your post, the clinical management levels have actually gone down in the past 2 years.
The countless other non clerical staff such as porters, cleaners, admin assistants are needed to do enable the nurses to concentrate on their primary roles.

If you want to start saving money in the NHS then start going after the private companies that can pretty much charge what they like for services / staff / PPE etc all enabled by every government over the last 30 years.

I see the stress my sister is under in her role as Matron for her trust, I see her frustration that she can't get enough nurses to provide the care her and her teams want to give.

Focus on the 19% all you like, but there is more to the nurses having to take this action than what they get paid each month

Yes. I know two nurses very well and their main gripe is not getting the staff. This of course leads into the never ending paradox of the NHS being in a position of constant siege. The more They do right, the more They appear to do wrong.

They can never keep up. The more they do, the more is asked. It faces huge increases in unplanned population growth . People turn up with botched cosmetic surgery sometimes. They demand treatment saying that it is affecting their mental health. One example mind, but there are others.

I don't know the answer, but it is clearly to big and too all embracing.. Health is very difficult to sort in any society, but if somewhere is doing it better than us, we should try and learn a bit from them.