Get Thiago in midfield and that should fix at least one issue. He’ll sit alongside fab so poor fab isn’t isolated and gives us more stability. He’s also the out ball for full backs, fab and centre backs which will help to relieve pressure
LFC Stats and Analytics
- Thread starter Jimmy Squarefoot
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That's one side yes but the gaping hole thst is trent and Elliott still remains.
At least thiago put his foot in v napoli.
A 4231 would put both sitting but it'd require someone to play 10 and someone to go wide right.
Perhaps a radical thought is this.
Ali
Trent matip vvd robertson
Fabinho thiago
Elliott salah Diaz
Nunez
Just as a thought. It's this or accept salah glued to touchline tacking back for trent.
STATS:
Number of presses per 90mins in opponents 3rd of pitch
Last season 44.8 in prem - best of everyone. city included.
This season 32.8. absolutely mid table performance and massive less intense.
RCB is covering twice the space he would normally do as a combination of elliott and trent being basically nowhere.
Number of presses per 90mins in opponents 3rd of pitch
Last season 44.8 in prem - best of everyone. city included.
This season 32.8. absolutely mid table performance and massive less intense.
RCB is covering twice the space he would normally do as a combination of elliott and trent being basically nowhere.
Add getting out run every game to that too
that man would sort us out. unflappable. unlike our bunch of mr jones'.
It was sad to see just one man was all it took to chase off up the park in the first minute to open us up totally.
I honestly wonder what we did this preseason at this point as it feels like we never worked on patterns of defending at all.
Thiago takes off, doesn't get close, stops up and lets white have easy pass.
VVd refuses to engage saka for whatever fear.
Henderson sleepwalks odengaard past himself
Trent tries his best but then gets confused what to do and ends up nowere.
Matip stands back and lets it play round him.
It literally only took thaigo making a run forwad and no recovering to create a massive overlap on the other side.
the agression was not there. thiago didn't hit white had. vvd trotted back not wanting to go near saka. Henderson didn't track odengaard.
saka passes to odengaad, who plays in martinelli round the rb channel and bang goal. simplicity itself. no real pressure. no real shape.
Thiago and Hendo don't have the legs to cover the ground quick enough in transition, which then leaves the defence exposed. Hendo also doesn't have the tactical discipline to block passing lanes (which is why Fabinho should be starting despite his poor form). But even with Fab, there is a lack of legs.
Most of the goals conceded are stemming from our right channel. Trent is getting all the blame but the right midfielder is also to play - both the quality of the personnel and potentially the role they're being asked to play. If you look at most of the average positions of our RCM, they're far too wide and away from Fab.
VVD has an eye on the World Cup as far as I'm concerned.
Most of the goals conceded are stemming from our right channel. Trent is getting all the blame but the right midfielder is also to play - both the quality of the personnel and potentially the role they're being asked to play. If you look at most of the average positions of our RCM, they're far too wide and away from Fab.
VVD has an eye on the World Cup as far as I'm concerned.
This is pretty painful ... as you can see, our attack is pretty much in line with prior seasons.
But the defence is MASSIVELY struggling. Opponents are converting 22% of their shots compared to approx < 10% in prior seasons. And we're also conceding more shots each game. Either our opponents are getting very lucky with their finishing or the quality of their chances is increasing - and judging by the goals we have conceded, I would go with the latter. Opponents are walking into the box and creating chances inside our 6 yard box in most cases.
I think the back line has underperformed but the lack of structure in midfield is equally culpable IMO.
But the defence is MASSIVELY struggling. Opponents are converting 22% of their shots compared to approx < 10% in prior seasons. And we're also conceding more shots each game. Either our opponents are getting very lucky with their finishing or the quality of their chances is increasing - and judging by the goals we have conceded, I would go with the latter. Opponents are walking into the box and creating chances inside our 6 yard box in most cases.
I think the back line has underperformed but the lack of structure in midfield is equally culpable IMO.
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Another issue is our performance when the game is tied. This is astonishingly bad
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the good news is the games are not tied for long. the bad news is this is cos we throw in an early goal through rank defending. If we manage to claw back leverl or get ahead we almost always throw in another goal as well.
this is an excellent example of how "stats" like XG tell us nothing. the in depth examination of number of sprints, number of presses and so forth and so on are far more telling.
the arsenal first goal in minute 1 is very very telling. No pressure on ball from Thiago who's out of position, no pressure from vvd, he's scared. No pressure from henderson, he's ball watching. the only reason it then registers as XG is cos martinelli is clean through as a result of three very simple passes by arsneal players who were given time and space to make them
Would be unnatural if he didn’t. Interesting fackt: both Salah and VVD highest earners of the club with Salah >> VVD and both playing well below par.
both were rewarded previously to be highest earners and performed.
the reality is both are now past their best
Same agument jimmy made about henderson.
It was fairly clear henderosn was on his way down but keeping the captain was no bad thing given the clubs trajectory however we seem to have ignored or missed the sports scientists telling the club that our incumbent players were slowing up.
It was reported in January that one aspect of the delay with salah was his numbers from training etc were clearly showing a slow down. this was a rumour of course, but its now playing out in front of us.
Our new young side
Kelleher (injury prone)
Trent (cant defend, looks shot mentally)
Tsimikas (looks very much i nhe same sate as the rest mentally, gave saka a battle though)
Gomez (absolutely horrendous performance at RCB and was dropped for it. injury prone)
konate (was injured so only back, another with a history of worrying injuries (hip and i did say this when he was bought)
jones. (Injury prone and cant defend)
elliott (zoro physicality or impact in press)
Bajetic (17 year old who has not featured which says it all)
Cavalho (half decent but a lot to learn)
Jota (injured)
Nunez (lets call it a mixed start)
Diaz (now injured)
Lets be clear that we have worked to brin in players and freshen up. the issue is the midfield has 3 "of a type" kids who are luxuries and not no 8 box to box types and ther eis no no 6 for fabinho.
In short our issus start at CM but extend right through the side in circumstance but really we have zero option now but to play 3 old men in mdifeld who cannot run.
however.... the ****ing STATE of the performances from the old ones means we might as well be drawing and losing playing guys who might run about.
Your wrong on elliot again you know.
It's difficult to qualify this season,because the press in general has been shocking.
However elliot is one of the only players actually closing down. Unfortunately the player he closes down has easy out balls into midfield, or across the back line.
The high line and press only works when all the players go together, resulting in hurried passes & miscontrol.
If elliot harries one lad put he can play it past him into midfield because thiago, Henderson and fabinho are still chugging about, that's not his issue its there's.
he doesn't actually put his foot in though.
he gets close sometimes but i am seeing a lad who runs bout but really if the guy can just pass it round him cos he's not really tight then the effect is exactly the same as what we saw at start of season
yes you point is very well made that a press is an 11 man job and if others are not getting close then his man does have outball.
however... if you don't put a foot in (and i'm also saying Thiago, henderson and vvd failed at this v arsenal) then that person is not under pressure and can pick his pass.
EVERYONE (as you say) have to be more aggressive and hit the ****ers. I loved seeing joe gomez smash martinelli out of the line. It's like as if we have not taken on board the prem's rules this season that contact is encouraged. Salah has hands all over him all game but we don't get anywhere near people.
the reality is though, elliott doesn't get that tackle in. when is the last time we've seen our players frustrated with a ref blowing up cos they have been overeager in the press?
I understand where your coming from, I just feel your objections are misplaced when it comes to elliot.
It's hard to explain my thoughts without a diagram of some sort, but I'll try to give an example.
Two centrebacks playing the ball between them, elliot goes to the first, easy pass out to the other.
2 things cam happen here, 2nd centre back recieves tha ball under no pressure or challenge, all the time in the world to control it and play again. If elliot runs to him he then just plays it back to his mate, elliot looks a dickhead chasing about like a terrier.
This is what happens now, alot.
2nd scenario
Elliot chases the first centre back he plays it to the second cb, firmino for example Is in on him, he has to hit it quickly back to the first centre back who struggles to control it, elliot then hits him. He panics and slams it up the pitch or loses the ball.
This is what used to happen.
It's not the first tackle, or the first press that does the damage its the follow up, that sows panic and closes off the options.
Elliot is very good at that initial press, no ****er goes with him.
thats fair enough. but my point is he looks good at it but he's not actually completing a press. He doesn't get in contact with the ball does he?
Now on the press, no midfielder is the leader of the press. elliott is the RCM. he should be going from the trigger person (forward) Same story minute 1 v asneal. thaigo goes lashing out and nobody else is going anything. all it does is open a gap.
If oyu wan to talk press then we chould be seeing the following
CF lead press up on CBs, RW and LW should be up closing off lanes narrow and one cm should be closing off anyone coming short (not two cms, one) the two fullbacks should be watching thier full backs with the intent to swarm them.
Our press is not looking to win the ball as much as to close the passing lanes, forcing squae and back pass and then TRIGGER the second a ball goes to a narrow space or man facing the wrong way. its this trigger. A full back has a ball floated at him from the keeper. is back ought to be to play and our full backs should be hammering them.
Elliott in this should be pushing in on CMs with back to play receiving the ball in. He has to hit them and tackle them. He does not.
Again I have been critical of Thiago here. He ran up out of the CM location at ben white, stops 3 yards off him ,applied zero pressure and allowed an easy pass forward. I have watched ellioot time and again get 2 or 3 yards form someone and just stop a sit is enough and that ball gets shuffeld on. he doesn't hit them if they have the ball. this is why the young lad has ben dropped to solve the right side debacle (and make no mistake he has been dropped alongside fabinho here).
eliott has loads of energy. he's very nice on the ball oging frwad but hasn't much to play to frnakly. but its fairly clear he's not getitng in there and hitting the player.
Some examples:
Why was the team praised v rangers? Aggression.
Why has tsimikas looked half decent (barely) he is a grabber and a diger. He hit saka about 5 times during the game.
Why did gomez make a difference defending? he hit his men (he is a risky **** and makes fouls)
Why did matip go off? well he never put a foot in. no idea what injury he was hiding.
why is vvd not hammering players? no idea
Why is henderson ball wahicng? no idea.
not of this excuses elliott though. every player has to do it yes, but i'm not excusing anyone esp not elliott
thats fair enough. but my point is he looks good at it but he's not actually completing a press. He doesn't get in contact with the ball does he?
Now on the press, no midfielder is the leader of the press. elliott is the RCM. he should be going from the trigger person (forward) Same story minute 1 v asneal. thaigo goes lashing out and nobody else is going anything. all it does is open a gap.
If oyu wan to talk press then we chould be seeing the following
CF lead press up on CBs, RW and LW should be up closing off lanes narrow and one cm should be closing off anyone coming short (not two cms, one) the two fullbacks should be watching thier full backs with the intent to swarm them.
Our press is not looking to win the ball as much as to close the passing lanes, forcing squae and back pass and then TRIGGER the second a ball goes to a narrow space or man facing the wrong way. its this trigger. A full back has a ball floated at him from the keeper. is back ought to be to play and our full backs should be hammering them.
Elliott in this should be pushing in on CMs with back to play receiving the ball in. He has to hit them and tackle them. He does not.
Again I have been critical of Thiago here. He ran up out of the CM location at ben white, stops 3 yards off him ,applied zero pressure and allowed an easy pass forward. I have watched ellioot time and again get 2 or 3 yards form someone and just stop a sit is enough and that ball gets shuffeld on. he doesn't hit them if they have the ball. this is why the young lad has ben dropped to solve the right side debacle (and make no mistake he has been dropped alongside fabinho here).
eliott has loads of energy. he's very nice on the ball oging frwad but hasn't much to play to frnakly. but its fairly clear he's not getitng in there and hitting the player.
Some examples:
Why was the team praised v rangers? Aggression.
Why has tsimikas looked half decent (barely) he is a grabber and a diger. He hit saka about 5 times during the game.
Why did gomez make a difference defending? he hit his men (he is a risky **** and makes fouls)
Why did matip go off? well he never put a foot in. no idea what injury he was hiding.
why is vvd not hammering players? no idea
Why is henderson ball wahicng? no idea.
not of this excuses elliott though. every player has to do it yes, but i'm not excusing anyone esp not elliott
Quite happy to disagree on this one either out going on about it.
I'm my view elliot was very much one of the bright spots in a poor team.
I dont think he's been dropped, bit I don't think he's at all suitable to sit in a midfield 2. If we oersisted with the 3 I'd rather gave him on the pitch than Henderson or thiago.
But as I say there's not alot of point reiterating the same points.