Off Topic Politics Thread

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Gregm1988 said:
Without carrying on standing on this soapbox - because this broad brush thinking is a problem and one of the causes of the issues right now

Similar to the way some American election analysts talk about the Hispanic / Latino vote as if it is a monolith when it really really isn’t.

Or this idea that because someone is a woman they should be outraged by this. Just by default. No argument. No attempt at justification. And it hasn’t worked and isn’t working. Indeed the arguments presented by pro-choice people have degraded and degraded over the years to the point where they are actually pretty rubbish and unconvincing to anyone even moderately sceptical. (Note: this isn’t saying there aren’t compelling arguments. They just aren’t the loudest or most widely stated)

It’s based in this idea of “didn’t you know you lost the culture war” spoken by liberals to conservatives. Said conservatives were told this. Repeatedly. But they didn’t listen and instead got to work. I made a similar post on a very very feminist sub Reddit the other day precisely because I saw someone say “conservatives are just angry they lost the culture war”. And I thought - hold up. No they are not. Because to them it isn’t over. And the fact that some many think it is is why you get outcomes like this last week

(Apologies if I wrote this up thread and forgot but I am a little irked by this and have been posting this in several places because some people just don’t get it. And it is the same kind of feeling of arrogance and complacency that got trump elected in the first place)
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Spot on. Identity politics is a huge problem.

People seem to think that if you have an opinion on an issue, you’re instantly in some identity group

Reality is never black and white, it’s always a myriad of shades of grey. But unfortunately many people are so brainwashed by propaganda that they truly believe that everyone that doesn’t believe what they believe is the enemy. It’s wild to see.
Unfortunately though, a lot of politicians intentionally Stoke these flames and then their media propaganda amplifies it.

(example from UK: anyone that voted for Brexit is a racist”).

The sooner we can get everyone treating each other like individuals the sooner these things will improve… but it currently seems to be getting worse thanks to media & social media
 
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Osvaldorama said:
Spot on. Identity politics is a huge problem.

People seem to think that if you have an opinion on an issue, you’re instantly in some identity group

Reality is never black and white, it’s always a myriad of shades of grey. But unfortunately many people are so brainwashed by propaganda that they truly believe that everyone that doesn’t believe what they believe is the enemy. It’s wild to see.
Unfortunately though, a lot of politicians intentionally Stoke these flames and then their media propaganda amplifies it.

(example from UK: anyone that voted for Brexit is a racist”).

The sooner we can get everyone treating each other like individuals the sooner these things will improve… but it seems to be getting worse thanks to media & social media
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There are some pretty big fault lines under the surface that result in even some of the most radical lefty types being lumped in with (and sometimes driven into the arms of) people on the right (sometimes even the extreme right)

Just look at those labelled Terfs for example. That acronym actually has “radical feminist” in the name. They are radical. And often radical on many other left leaning issues. Those that aren’t are usually just called bigots or transphobic. But those that are legit “Terfs” should basically align with the left in the US and the U.K. on every issue except one. But that one is enough in many cases to see them cast out , ostracised and sometimes outright bullied.

And that is just an obvious example. There are others. Things like gay conservatives are rejected by the lgbtq movement (but in some cases such as Texas GOP their own “causes”). Or those that aren’t really black if the don’t vote Democrat. “Uncle Toms” and all that. I am sure it exists on the rights as well (hardcore republicans being called RINOs) but I am more conscious of the left wing ones as that is where I always saw myself but am becoming disquieted by some of the more radical people in that space with their lack of interest in discussion, crazy purity tests. Insistence on eating their own etc etc
 
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Just been reading that as many as 6 Tory MPs are in talks with Starmer, with regards to switching parties.
As much as I would enjoy seeing the Tories majority weakened, IMO, any MP wishing to swap parties mid term, should automatically have to fight a by-election.
I’m also not sure what message this sends to the voters on either side.
Tory supporters will be feeling cheated that their vote has been hijacked and Labour supporters will be wondering if the MPs’ views on politics have drastically changed or whether they see this latest reincarnation of Labour as being close enough to the old Tory party that they don’t need to change their political views.
 
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Disappointed that David Lammy, Labour MP, has stated that he “categorically doesn’t support the BA strike”.
As I understand it, the BA workers aren’t striking for a pay rise but striking to have a 10% cut in their wages, instigated during the pandemic when BA were trying to force through fire and rehire policy, reinstated.
It has been alleged that the BA management have already had the missing 10% reinstated, so it is just the “shop floor” staff who are being mistreated, as per the norm.
Just like Starmer, when questioned about the RMT strikes, he has missed the opportunity to educate the people about what exactly is the cause of the strikes.
Regarding the RMT strikes, Shapps’ refusal to involve himself in bringing the negotiations to an end, claiming that he doesn’t have the right to intervene, has been proved to be yet another Tory lie, by a top QC who specialises in employment law.
In other examples where the government genuinely have no right to intervene in the negotiations, RMT have greed 7% pay rises with the train companies, which needs to be given more recognition in the public arena.
 
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St Badger said:
Disappointed that David Lammy, Labour MP, has stated that he “categorically doesn’t support the BA strike”.
As I understand it, the BA workers aren’t striking for a pay rise but striking to have a 10% cut in their wages, instigated during the pandemic when BA were trying to force through fire and rehire policy, reinstated.
It has been alleged that the BA management have already had the missing 10% reinstated, so it is just the “shop floor” staff who are being mistreated, as per the norm.
Just like Starmer, when questioned about the RMT strikes, he has missed the opportunity to educate the people about what exactly is the cause of the strikes.
Regarding the RMT strikes, Shapps’ refusal to involve himself in bringing the negotiations to an end, claiming that he doesn’t have the right to intervene, has been proved to be yet another Tory lie, by a top QC who specialises in employment law.
In other examples where the government genuinely have no right to intervene in the negotiations, RMT have greed 7% pay rises with the train companies, which needs to be given more recognition in the public arena.
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I have far more empathy for the BA staff than the bloody RMT TBH. RMT were asking for far too much.
 
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tomw24 said:
A pay rise in line with the rate of inflation. Completely unrealistic. Even the 7% increase (the minimum they wanted) was never going to happen. They get bloody well paid as it is.
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It’s unrealistic for workers whose pay has been frozen for two years, while they worked all through the pandemic (and not from home), to expect a pay rise in line with inflation now? Why is that unrealistic? And how are you defining “bloody well paid”?
 
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tomw24 said:
A pay rise in line with the rate of inflation. Completely unrealistic. Even the 7% increase (the minimum they wanted) was never going to happen. They get bloody well paid as it is.
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Who is well paid Tom? You do know it's not the drivers that are striking? As was pointed out several times to government ministers calling the drivers greedy, lies and misleading propaganda from the corrupt incumbents.
"It should be noted that in 2021, Network Rail CEO Andrew Haines received an annual wage of £585,000, Chief Financial Officer Jeremy Westlake made £415,000 and Route Services Managing Director Susan Cooklin took home £385,000.
Meanwhile, Network Rail is advertising customer service assistant and station control assistant roles that pay just £20,000."
 
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Archers Road said:
It’s unrealistic for workers whose pay has been frozen for two years, while they worked all through the pandemic (and not from home), to expect a pay rise in line with inflation now? Why is that unrealistic? And how are you defining “bloody well paid”?
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I'm not saying they shouldn't get a pay rise but 7% in one go is not realistic. Most people have to deal with the increase in cost of living without getting that much of a pay rise. The simple solution if you feel you're underpaid or undervalued is to quit and find another job. The job market isn't exactly lacking for vacancies.
 
tomw24 said:
I'm not saying they shouldn't get a pay rise but 7% in one go is not realistic. Most people have to deal with the increase in cost of living without getting that much of a pay rise. The simple solution if you feel you're underpaid or undervalued is to quit and find another job. The job market isn't exactly lacking for vacancies.
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If you don’t like it, leave, is one solution. Asking for a pay rise is another. That’s what the RMT are doing on behalf of their members, and that seems perfectly reasonable to me.
 
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St Badger said:
Just been reading that as many as 6 Tory MPs are in talks with Starmer, with regards to switching parties.
As much as I would enjoy seeing the Tories majority weakened, IMO, any MP wishing to swap parties mid term, should automatically have to fight a by-election.
I’m also not sure what message this sends to the voters on either side.
Tory supporters will be feeling cheated that their vote has been hijacked and Labour supporters will be wondering if the MPs’ views on politics have drastically changed or whether they see this latest reincarnation of Labour as being close enough to the old Tory party that they don’t need to change their political views.
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100% agree. If I voted in a Tory MP, I'd be miffed if I had suddenly voted in a Labour MP and vice versa.
 
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tomw24 said:
Asking for it, yes, but the strikes are OTT IMO.
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If you have any understanding of trade unions you will know that a lot of the rights, wages and working conditions that you now have, and pretty much everyone in the country, were won for you by unions taking strike action at some point in time.
The government, imo, are more guilty of causing the RMT strikes, through pulling the strings of the train companies, whilst denying interference.
I stated a week or so ago that the government wants this disruption as they see it as a way of dividing the working class and gaining support.
Fortunately it seems that they have misjudged the public, with RMT receiving decent support, although the media is doing it’s best to disguise it.
 
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tomw24 said:
Asking for it, yes, but the strikes are OTT IMO.
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If management refuse to withdraw the threat of redundancies, the government refuse to step in to mediate and governmental policy of annual inflation linked increases to fares continues, with vast dividend and bonus payments to shareholders and management, then there really is only one way to handle it.
How come the rail system on the continent works so well? Ah yes - it’s nationally run, fares are capped to encourage people to take the train and profits reinvested in the infrastructure so no dividends are payable.
It’s no wonder that private equity firms are sniffing around the U.K. rail system - it’s a licence to print money currently.
 
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A lot of people don't want or don't see the need to be in a union, but when their hours, salary or conditions are changed they have to accept it or move on. This dispute shows exactly why all workers need unions to protect them. Why should workers change jobs because the employer wants to impose unreasonable conditions on them? If you have the opportunity but don't take up the option to join a union you have only yourself to blame if this happens.
There are always two sides to every dispute and in this case it is the RMT responding to the railway companies who initiated the problem. The railway companies could have negotiated to avoid a strike that they knew was coming. They had almost a month's notice.
The RMT looks like a well run union that does what it is supposed to do, ie look after it's paying members. Comments like "everyone has had their working conditions changed, why should they be any different"? Or "Everyone has to accept low pay offers these days" have completely missed the point. Being a union member means you don't have to accept changes to your employment or at least not without a fight.

According to Mick Lynch the railway companies are making 500 million pounds profits, even through lockdown (I can't verify this). Train tickets are raised every year based on the RPI.
 
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davecg69 said:
If management refuse to withdraw the threat of redundancies, the government refuse to step in to mediate and governmental policy of annual inflation linked increases to fares continues, with vast dividend and bonus payments to shareholders and management, then there really is only one way to handle it.
How come the rail system on the continent works so well? Ah yes - it’s nationally run, fares are capped to encourage people to take the train and profits reinvested in the infrastructure so no dividends are payable.
It’s no wonder that private equity firms are sniffing around the U.K. rail system - it’s a licence to print money currently.
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I travelled back to the Netherlands Friday the 17th catching the 09:30 Southampton to Waterloo, tube to St. Pancras for the 13:01 Eurostar to Brussels. All went well to that point but, surprisingly, it was the Belgian and Dutch connections to The Hague that were disrupted. The Thalys Brussels to Rotterdam I'd originally booked was cancelled. I planned to come back on the 22nd but circumstances including the strikes which I fully support, meant a change.
 
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