Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Staines R's]

As you have said constantly, neither side is whiter than white, which js true in Domblas anyway

Finally you get my point…..and that’s precisely why I struggle to choose a side

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY

Nobody ?

600 right wing fanatics. We have a lot more than that in the modern equivalent of the National Front.

 

[Staines R's]

600 right wing fanatics. We have a lot more than that in the modern equivalent of the National Front.

You’re being silly now Goldie.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Finally you get my point…..and that’s precisely why I struggle to choose a side

And I accept there is a minority undesirables on the East of Ukraine. But the vast majority of Ukrainians are not fanatics, and they are currentlly being bombed in their homes or forced from their own country, which is why, on the issue of Putin's unwarranted attack on Ukraine, virtually nobody is having difficulty picking Ukraine to support. Even China won't come out and support Putin.

 

[Staines R's]

And I accept there is a minority undesirables on the East of Ukraine. But the vast majority of Ukrainians are not fanatics, and they are currentlly being bombed in their homes or forced from their own country, which is why, on the issue of Putin's unwarranted attack on Ukraine, virtually nobody is having difficulty picking Ukraine to support. Even China won't come out and support Putin.

I’ve never said I supported Putin or Russia, and you very well know that.

 

[colognehornet]

I don't doubt there are some undesirables in the Eastern Ukraine camp. There are extremists on both sides in the Donblas dispute. It's the scale I'm questioning. Why wouldn't a left leaning media outlet like the BBC pick up on it to excuse Putin? The BBC would not be supporting a fascist, or even largely fascist, regime. Neither would the Guardian. Neither would Keir Starmer.

In fact the only dissenting voice I've heard is Jeremy Corbyn and his small band of MP supporters.

The problem is that the atrocities in the Dombass since 2014 have been largely ignored by the Western press Goldie. It would help to look up on them before casting judgement, though I admit they have been committed by both sides. This idea of grilling people to find out what side they are on is all too black and white for me - George Bush did the same when he said ''You are either with us or against us'' - as if all those who doubted the legitimacy of the Iraq war were friends to Saddam. Speaking of which the Americans are not in the position of being able to condemn anyone else for violating the sovereignty of other countries. It's just that we don't call it invasion when the good guys do it. My side is clear - in my town of Engelskirchen we are already preparing accomodation and resources for expected refugees from the Ukraine and I will be helping with that. Will Britain be so supportive when it comes to taking refugees or will they expect Poland or Romania (ie. the first country of entry to take the full brunt of this) as has been their practice with those from the middle east ?

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

You’re being silly now Goldie.

No, I'm not. Scale is important. You're approaching this as if Ukraine has a fascist government and/or its citizens want to bring one in. They don't

 

[Staines R's]

The problem is that the atrocities in the Dombass since 2014 have been largely ignored by the Western press Goldie. It would help to look up on them before casting judgement, though I admit they have been committed by both sides. This idea of grilling people to find out what side they are on is all too black and white for me - George Bush did the same when he said ''You are either with us or against us'' - as if all those who doubted the legitimacy of the Iraq war were friends to Saddam. Speaking of which the Americans are not in the position of being able to condemn anyone else for violating the sovereignty of other countries. It's just that we don't call it invasion when the good guys do it. My side is clear - in my town of Engelskirchen we are already preparing accomodation and resources for expected refugees from the Ukraine and I will be helping with that. Will Britain be so supportive when it comes to taking refugees or will they expect Poland or Romania (ie. the first country of entry to take the full brunt of this) as has been their practice with those from the middle east ?

Great post C. My thoughts entirely

This bizarre notion that some have that “If you’re not with us, you are against us”…..surely needs addressing.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I’ve never said I supported Putin or Russia, and you very well know that.

I didn't say you were. But I don't think you are reasonable in not supporting the innocent civilians in Ukraine. That's all

 

[Staines R's]

No, I'm not. Scale is important. You're approaching this as if Ukraine has a fascist government and/or its citizens want to bring one in. They don't

So what does the 600 figure refer to…….?

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

So what does the 600 figure refer to…….?

A small number of fanatics in a population of 44 million

 

[Staines R's]

I didn't say you were. But I don't think you are reasonable in not supporting the innocent civilians in Ukraine. That's all

Of course I support the innocent people everywhere…however that wasn’t what I was asked by you and Col….I was asked to pick a side in the conflict. Straight choice, no grey area. That, in my opinion anyway, is very unfair

 

[Staines R's]

A small number of fanatics in a population of 44 million

But you’ve specifically come out with a figure of 600……did you make that up ?

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

But you’ve specifically come out with a figure of 600……did you make that up ?

I read it in the Reuters article you posted

 

[Steelmonkey]

War is dirty. War is a failure of diplomacy. War is the last resort. But war generally happens when the two sides involved in the conflict keep pushing each other until one power decides enough is enough. Atrocities happen, it's the nature of war. How many thousands of innocent civilians did the Allies kill in the bombing if Dresden and other German cities? Hiw many died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But we don't dwell on that. Yes, Hitler, Mussolini and Horohito were the bad guys, but we had plenty of blood on our hands too.

So, Putin is the nastier of the two in this conflict but there are no innocents in the leaderships of both nations, only the poor civilians who's country is now being ravaged by the Soviets. Where will it all end? Putin is a madman on a mission, so **** knows. But I'd be very wary of getting any NATO troops involved as that will lead to total carnage.

Plenty of submarine action out on the Clyde the last couple of weeks, wonder what they are up to....

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Of course I support the innocent people everywhere…however that wasn’t what I was asked by you and Col….I was asked to pick a side in the conflict. Straight choice, no grey area. That, in my opinion anyway, is very unfair

If you support innocent civilians everywhere, you should have no difficulty taking sides in this conflict, because Putin's army are killing innocent civilians and it's totally unwarranted

 

[Staines R's]

I read it in the Reuters article you posted

Really ? Look again mate and come back to me…..sure it says 1000 ? I’m assuming the numbers might have risen since 2015.
And of course that is only in regard to the Azov Battalion….not the many other battalions and militias out there, backed privately by Ukrainian ogliarchs……what number do we need to make it an issue ?

 

[Staines R's]

War is dirty. War is a failure of diplomacy. War is the last resort. But war generally happens when the two sides involved in the conflict keep pushing each other until one power decides enough is enough. Atrocities happen, it's the nature of war. How many thousands of innocent civilians did the Allies kill in the bombing if Dresden and other German cities? Hiw many died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But we don't dwell on that. Yes, Hitler, Mussolini and Horohito were the bad guys, but we had plenty of blood on our hands too.

So, Putin is the nastier of the two in this conflict but there are no innocents in the leaderships of both nations, only the poor civilians who's country is now being ravaged by the Soviets. Where will it all end? Putin is a madman on a mission, so **** knows. But I'd be very wary of getting any NATO troops involved as that will lead to total carnage.

Plenty of submarine action out on the Clyde the last couple of weeks, wonder what they are up to....

Great post

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Really ? Look again mate and come back to me…..sure it says 1000 ? I’m assuming the numbers might have risen since 2015.
And of course that is only in regard to the Azov Battalion….not the many other battalions and militias out there, backed privately by Ukrainian ogliarchs……what number do we need to make it an issue ?

It refers to a demonstration by 600 members of a right wing militia.

 

[Staines R's]

If you support innocent civilians everywhere, you should have no difficulty taking sides in this conflict, because Putin's army are killing innocent civilians and it's totally unwarranted

Again, and I mentioned this earlier, haven’t the Ukrainian government made all civilians a legitimate target in war by calling for them to rise up and attack the Russian forces with petrol bombs and handing out 1000’s of AKs ?
Not knocking them for it but it’s hard now to differentiate innocent civilian to enemy combatant…..at least that’s what I’d think.
I’m sure someone like Steels would possibly be able to elaborate