Graveyard tracks

[SaveTheHumans]

I was off work yesterday and while watching the racing through the day got thinking how I never back horses at Brighton. Then I realised there are actually several tracks throughout Britain and Ireland I just don't bet at, or at least very rarely would.

I have been scarred from a young age I realised by wasting several hours studying the form at these "graveyard" tracks to seemingly enjoying little success. So I gave up. So much so to the point I almost discard form from these said tracks, probably to my own demise, most of the time.

I was curious if any of you were the same, do you avoid certain tracks for any given reason?

Here are some of the courses I seem to habitually avoid, both codes unless indicated, in no particular order:

Brighton
Catterick
Bellewstown
Downpatrick
Carlisle
Salisbury
Chepstow (flat)
Clonmel
Sligo
Epsom
Bath
Roscommon (jumps)

Please feel free to add yours for whatever reason. It is a slow Friday here before Wexford kicks off

 

[Pilgrim]

I try to avoid all the AWs but not always with success, the flat races at Kempton are horrendous for me. Bath, Beverley, Brighton, Hamilton and Ripon I don't like either. With the exception of Cheltenham the tracks I like best are the Irish tracks although they are certainly much more difficult to bet on, I try to hold back there but don't succeed most of the time, I know I have more winners in the UK but I like to bet in Ireland.

 

[Sir Barney Chuckles]

Excellent thread.

Top of the list for me has to be Chester. Cor blimey who in their right mind would design a track like that! Also am very hesitant re York - you get some very unpredictable things happen at that venue in my view and some very strange decisions, at times, made by the jockeys, during the course of a heat, re where to race.

Over this sticks am also hesitant re Ascot and Aintree (Mildmay course only). The latter I've always thought is somewhat brutal.

Re the all-weather not that keen on Southwell Sands or Chlemsford,. But the other venues I've no complaints about.

 

[OddDog]

Turning the question round, I guess one could ask: At which tracks is course form of the highest value. You'd start with the "unique" tracks such as Epsom, Goodwood or Chester on the flat and Cheltenham (where one has to be incredibly careful to note which of the 2 courses in under consideration - and also whether we are talking the highly coveted "festival form"), Sandown (particularly the chase course with emphasis on jumping) and of course, most famously, the National course at Aintree.

As I am much more of a jumps man there is also the important distinctions of: "left-handed or right-handed", "flat or undulating" and "sharp or galloping".

Anyway, back to the original question - tracks where it can get really bottomless (Haydock, Chepstow and Ffos Las in the depths of winter spring to mind) are ones where I tread very carefully - also the hurdle track at Sandown (can be heavy when the chase course is good-soft).

Ref Sir Barney's comment re Ascot over the sticks - I think it is a very fair but very testing track and horses need to see out the trip really well.

 

[Grecian Mick]

For me it is definitely REDCAR. Have been there several times when stationed in Middlesbrough. I don’t think I’ve had many winners at all, doesn’t seem to be any draw bias and always throws up surprising results. Can remember a 4/7 shot that everyone was tipping up as the next best thing and watched as it was well beaten. Also to me it is also low calibre of racing there most meetings.

 

[redcgull]

As someone who prefers the jumps to the flat i do struggle with the flat courses only, and it dosnt matter which ones they are...!! So Redcar as mentioned before, York, Goodwood, Chester Yarmouth etc I have a bad strike rate, not that I am brilliant over jumps...!!!

I am ok at Haydock on the flat, but being my local track I seem to get the feel for it maybe... As for the AW, err forget it....!! I did try and learn a bit off the thread Nass did on his AW betting experiment but I still couldn't get it...

I'll stick to what I like, and just take it easier on the ones I don't...

 

[NassauBoard]

Interesting question, and I think it probably is more than just the track that makes it a "graveyard" for your betting at said course.

I have big issues with Goodwood, but whether this is real or just a perception given how often horses find trouble at that course. Now I try not to back hold up horses from inside stalls at that course (on the far rail track) and that has seen me do much better recently.

I like backing front runners, so Newmarket is a kind course, as is Cheltenham. If you like betting horses ridden from behind then you'd probably say both of those are tricky courses.

I also like looking at breeding of horses and sires, so I seem to do well at Haydock, Ffos Las and Chepstow when the rain comes, but if you are backing on form then those courses could be a right headache when it turns soft/heavy.

I find the All Weather the best for form, I think it stands up pretty well over the winter and I do think if you can avoid non triers, the All Weather is a good betting prospect. However if you aren't following it closely, it could be a minefield and a half.


All that said, I still hate watching my bets at Goodwood.

 

[smokethedeadbadger]

For me i dont really have a preference for tracks I'll bet at or not. It's more of what i get enjoyment out of. I don't really like jumps racing so when theres crappy little meetings on at places like Huntingdon, Fontwell, Newton Abbott to name but a few i won't even bother to look through the cards because i know i won't enjoy watching the racing. With the flat i can watch and enjoy without having a bet and it doesn't really matter what level thats at. I can't honestly say one way or the other that I've had success or failure more at certain tracks as its not something I've paid attention to or ever really noticed. Like everybody else on here though there are certain meetings that i look forward to and they're obviously held at the same track every year so in that sense i have a preference. But other than that if a horse is worth backing, where its running is mostly irrelevant to me.

 

[QuarterMoonII]

I avoid all the National Hunt tracks except when I happen to be on one. I only have a few bets on the Cheltenham Festival because I am usually sat in the boozer watching it.

On my only visit to Happy Valley twenty odd years ago, I only managed one winner and the odds on the local tote were dreadful because of the huge rake off; and the Chinese are gambling mad. I would go again just for the experience of being in an eight storey grandstand packed with Orientals, but fighting your way through half of Hong Kong to put a bet on something that returned 2.20 in a twelve runner handicap race I can leave.

In this country, I avoid quite a lot of the smaller tracks because the racing is not great quality and the best form to follow tends to come from the better horses. I avoid any track where the ground is worse than good to soft because previous form frequently becomes useless (especially fast ground form). Any horse should be okay on ground from good to firm to good to soft. There are a few that need it hard as a road but the phrase for a flat horse that needs it soft is “slow plodder (needs obstacles)”.

Of the major flat tracks, I generally avoid Epsom except for the Oaks and Derby, unless a horse has previous course form, because so many horses do not handle the undulations and the camber. Since the drainage work was done at York, the fields in non sprint races have started to come down the middle of the straight and fan out across the track so I rarely bet there anymore and I stopped going there when they introduced their camera ban.

I have never really bothered that much with the jokingly named “all weather” – remember when Southwell had to cancel fixtures for a couple of months after the track flooded and half of the sand washed away? The A/W started out as low quality bookie fodder and in many respects not much has changed. It annoys me that good quality races like the Northumberland Plate have been switched from turf. It is hard enough to find a winner without having to wonder if the horse handles tapeta when the form is from turf. I have thought about looking at the A/W statistics to see if it might be a good medium for laying on Betfair if particular sorts of race are bad for short-priced favourites.

 

[rudebwoy]

Lingfield aw track stumps me time and again , the lottery of that last bend , 2 furlong sprint, all kinds of traffic problems......but generally the synthetic surfaces provide good going conditions, like nass , I like them form wise , , but large fields at idiosyncratic tracks are a problem , Brighton, bath , goodwood and Salisbury are puzzles for me , I like haydock for front runners, flat and jumps , Cartmel for course form , ditto hexham , in fact love most jumps courses as they are unique , those oval flat tracks beloved of foreign racing bore me rigid , conversely I like kempton aw , and the jumps........fav track used to be towcester, so many winners used to appear on the hill and swoop past the tiring front runners .......

 

[Tamerlo]

I've never liked the "switchback tracks" like Brighton, Epsom, Lingfield, although I remember that top jockeys like Piggott and Breasley used to excel on these courses- and usually everywhere else!
My father went to the Epsom Derby several times and thought it a "scrubland" and unworthy of the premier Classic. There's been much debate as to whether it's a true and fair test of a twelve furlong horse. Personally, I have mixed feelings, but when a horse like recent winner, Serpentine, can prevail, it makes me wonder.
I tend to agree with Sir Barney about Chester's saucer track, although many punters used to double their wages when either of the above two jockeys were on a sprint favourite and drawn 1 or 2 at the old starting tapes.
My most hated course is Catterick. I went there once on New Year's Day to see a friend's horse run, and it was blowing a gale. The racing was put back 30 minutes and, when they'd got all the money in , promptly abandoned! A fence actually blew away in front of me and the unpainted stands looked constructed in wood rejected by Noah's Ark.
Southwell is also rubbish and sharp, but lowly Towcester deserves higher status- it's a very good test with its uphill finish, especially for a hurdler- and they used to do a great turkey curry at Christmas!

 

[SaveTheHumans]

The switchback tracks, as expected are among the chief courses for us finding it hard to find a winner then it seems. A number of reasons for this I suppose, horses not handling the track, perhaps getting no luck in running, jockey error, maybe, as Tamerlo alluded to Piggott and Breasley likely held more tactical nous to help their mount overcome the adversity a lesser rider may encounter on their journey around these tracks.

Generally though, with lower class of races you do tend to get some very strange results. Being Irish, some of the race results here at times you can only smirk at and move forward. Horses getting beaten out of sight over many runs then suddenly finding the stars align and winning out of nowhere, stewards noting there reason for horse improvement and moving swiftly on before going another 35 races getting beat by 40+ lengths.

It's probably best to stick to the higher end of racing from a punting perspective, if you are taking it very seriously. I find that it is usually fine to bet on the switchback tracks and on the lower grade racing at the less glamorous tracks once it is only to small stakes and knowing you will very unlikely be getting a return from it.

Taking me onto my next point then - is discipline the common most factor in successful punting? Do you guys target specific races or do you just bet when the opportunity presents itself and hope for the best? I understand many bet recreationally but it is also certain that you want to be seeing profit if possible. I also agree the All Weather does offer up a higher % chance of finding winners, and I too am a huge fan of Southwell and its flat racing.

 

[Tamerlo]

The switchback tracks, as expected are among the chief courses for us finding it hard to find a winner then it seems. A number of reasons for this I suppose, horses not handling the track, perhaps getting no luck in running, jockey error, maybe, as Tamerlo alluded to Piggott and Breasley likely held more tactical nous to help their mount overcome the adversity a lesser rider may encounter on their journey around these tracks.

Generally though, with lower class of races you do tend to get some very strange results. Being Irish, some of the race results here at times you can only smirk at and move forward. Horses getting beaten out of sight over many runs then suddenly finding the stars align and winning out of nowhere, stewards noting there reason for horse improvement and moving swiftly on before going another 35 races getting beat by 40+ lengths.

It's probably best to stick to the higher end of racing from a punting perspective, if you are taking it very seriously. I find that it is usually fine to bet on the switchback tracks and on the lower grade racing at the less glamorous tracks once it is only to small stakes and knowing you will very unlikely be getting a return from it.

Taking me onto my next point then - is discipline the common most factor in successful punting? Do you guys target specific races or do you just bet when the opportunity presents itself and hope for the best? I understand many bet recreationally but it is also certain that you want to be seeing profit if possible. I also agree the All Weather does offer up a higher % chance of finding winners, and I too am a huge fan of Southwell and its flat racing.

I agree that discipline is the key and to avoid handicaps. Having said that, I enjoy a punt in handicaps, especially over the jumps.
I don't know the statistics but my feeling is that non-handicaps in national hunt racing would be more reliable than the flat. I don't know whether it still applies but novice chases always provided more winning favourites than any other level weights race. Also, Group races on the flat seem less predictable nowadays.

 

[NassauBoard]

The switchback tracks, as expected are among the chief courses for us finding it hard to find a winner then it seems. A number of reasons for this I suppose, horses not handling the track, perhaps getting no luck in running, jockey error, maybe, as Tamerlo alluded to Piggott and Breasley likely held more tactical nous to help their mount overcome the adversity a lesser rider may encounter on their journey around these tracks.

Generally though, with lower class of races you do tend to get some very strange results. Being Irish, some of the race results here at times you can only smirk at and move forward. Horses getting beaten out of sight over many runs then suddenly finding the stars align and winning out of nowhere, stewards noting there reason for horse improvement and moving swiftly on before going another 35 races getting beat by 40+ lengths.

It's probably best to stick to the higher end of racing from a punting perspective, if you are taking it very seriously. I find that it is usually fine to bet on the switchback tracks and on the lower grade racing at the less glamorous tracks once it is only to small stakes and knowing you will very unlikely be getting a return from it.

Taking me onto my next point then - is discipline the common most factor in successful punting? Do you guys target specific races or do you just bet when the opportunity presents itself and hope for the best? I understand many bet recreationally but it is also certain that you want to be seeing profit if possible. I also agree the All Weather does offer up a higher % chance of finding winners, and I too am a huge fan of Southwell and its flat racing.

Looking at this idea of strange results by class -

Since 2010 the average price for the winner on turf (UK only)

Class 1- 9.05 (9 runner average)
2 - 11.82 (11.8 runners)
3 - 8.81 (8.7 runners)
4 - 8.81 (8.8 runners)
5 - 8.89 (8.9 runners)
6 - 10 (9.98 runners)

Which to me shows that the more direct link between difficulty (higher odds of winner) is directly correlated with the number of runners, rather than the class of the race.

Average odds of winners by race classification

Group 1 - 10.85
G2 - 8.28
G3 - 8.96
All Handicaps - 9.59


Suggests that finding the winners of Group1s is more difficult than handicaps! Whilst Group 2s and 3s are easier to find.

Courses with highest Average Odds

York - 12.56
Newbury - 11.42
Ascot - 11
Redcar - 10.79

Courses with lowest average odds

Brighton - 7.63
Lingfield (turf) - 7.99
Chester - 8.02
Musselburgh - 8.05


Again though, I expect if you look at the number of runners per race, then you would normalise that data and the differences wouldn't be massive.

 

[Sir Barney Chuckles]

Taking me onto my next point then - is discipline the common most factor in successful punting? Do you guys target specific races or do you just bet when the opportunity presents itself and hope for the best? I understand many bet recreationally but it is also certain that you want to be seeing profit if possible. I also agree the All Weather does offer up a higher % chance of finding winners, and I too am a huge fan of Southwell and its flat racing.

Re specific races I've said this many times on here over the past couple of seasons, or so, I am very wary of backing any horse, in any NH race, with a prizepot of less than £10k. And would only ever do so if I had strong opinions re that particular animal.

These races are to me full of 'something occuring' and doubt if many, in the above timescale, haven't seen something untoward contained within - e.g. horse running to achieve a lower mark, schooling in public, horse running to bring it on, horse running off a ridiculously low mark after months of 'underachieving', horse running against trainers wishes solely because the owner wants a day out etc, etc. And can I say I don't blame connections for doing this. With prizepots so low they have to look for an edge or underhand methods as that is the only way they can survive in the industry.

 

[redcgull]

I am off to Cartmel this coming Bank Holiday weekend and each and every time i have gone I'm not overly bothered about searching for the winners, going through the form etc as i am just there to have a laugh, few drinks and take it all in. I will put a side probably £20 for each race, so that's £120 or £140 quid depending on the number of races and it will be what it will be when the racing has ended. I might even miss a race to bet on as i might be too busy drinking or chatting with my mates but it's just a day out really...

On the other hand, when i go to Haydock in November for the Betfair Chase I will put the time and effort in to trying to solve each race if at all possible (never done that yet...!!) but it becomes a different beast then. I will be looking to make a good return on my bets for the day...

Each to there own i suppose, just depends on what you want from the day out...

 

[Tamerlo]

Red, Ha ha! Cartmel! Why not park your car in Morecambe- it’s only 11 or 12 miles to walk across the sands to Grange and then Cartmel.
Just make sure you set off about nine in the morning and back about nine at night. Otherwise RIP
Seriously, Red, what’s Haydock like nowadays? It was always my favourite course, so homely, and I went loads of times before it was refurbished in the seventies. Finding winners was always hard, though.

 

[redcgull]

Red, Ha ha! Cartmel! Why not park your car in Morecambe- it’s only 11 or 12 miles to walk across the sands to Grange and then Cartmel.
Just make sure you set off about nine in the morning and back about nine at night. Otherwise RIP
Seriously, Red, what’s Haydock like nowadays? It was always my favourite course, so homely, and I went loads of times before it was refurbished in the seventies. Finding winners was always hard, though.

Yeah, i know, Cartmel is a trip where it's one road in one road out, think i've been about 7 or 8 times now and usually just with friends and family so no pressure on getting out and back home...!! Plus i usually stay local which i am again this year...

Haydock hasnt change in the 15 or so years i have been going but i am sure it would have changed from your last visit Tam... I find it one of the more comfortable courses to go to with most of the facilities not too far from the track and are usually very accessible. The stands right on the finishing line is where I usually try and sit/stand and the bookies are right there as well, so happy days... The Betfair Chase day is a brilliant days racing, just love it, even with Betfair handing out those ghastly bright orange scarfs to everyone..!!!

My only gripe with Haydock is with the exits and getting out to go home. Going out the front is near impossible if it's a busy days racing and you have a big crowd in, and the far exit just takes forever to get out and is going in the wrong direction as far as im concerned...

Other than that i would recommend Haydock to anyone who hasnt been racing before...

 

[Tamerlo]

Hi Red. I have two main memories of racing at Haydock.
In 1976, I went with Burnley’s spin bowler, Trevor Jones, to watch the Mackeson Gold Cup- rerouted from Cheltenham. We both decided we were going to lump everything on Crump’s runner, Cancello. However, when I saw top weight, Bula, in the paddock, I fatally changed my mind and lumped it on him. It was a magnificent finish, although Trevor bollocked me!

Cancello went four lengths clear over the second last, but Bula was unleashed and, though 3 lengths down at the last, he finished like a Trojan and lost by nearly a length.
Two years later, we went to the 6F Vernons Sprint on the flat. I backed the first two winners and lumped it all at 8/11 on the French filly, Sanedki. However, the grey Absalom got a low draw in the heavy ground, trapped fast and first to the bend, and crossed over to the stand rail. Sanedki was trapped behind horses and , when she finally got out, finished fast to make up three lengths in the last half furlong- to lose by a nose.
Not my luckiest course, Haydock, but as you say, everything is close at hand and welcoming.
Never had a problem with car parking in those days, though.
Great memories.

 

[redcgull]

Tam, Haydock when its heavy really dos lean towards a specialist heavy ground runner as it can get deep. I would imagine that the drainage is a lot better from your time, but once the water gets in it dosnt shift much...!! When you go in the summer nowadays you can see the drain lines in the grass, so they have obviously tried to get rid of the problem, but it do throw up some weird and wonderful results when they go swimming...