Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Arsenal

[Dier Hard]

I don't think that he set the team out to play defensively, though.
They just ended up doing it, because some of the players were utterly anonymous.
Bale and Ndombele may as well have not turned up. They weren't trying to get on the ball and weren't tracking back.
I don't see how he could've predicted that and he was limited in his changes by the Son injury, which he has to take responsibility for.

He's done this tactic in most of his games in charge though, especially against decent/ good opposition, so I don't really see why you'd feel he didn't do it yesterday. He takes the shackles off against the dross of the division but anyone roughly 10th or higher and we're back to sitting back for most of the game hoping Kane saves us.

There were a number of poor performers no doubt about that, Kane and Son (for the time he was on) were almost as bad as Ndombele and Bale, as was Reguilon and Doherty, the latter especially is the most inept RB I've seen at this club though. It's hard to remember a poorer RB in recent memory; Carr, Stalteri, Chimbonda, Hutton (Alan ****ing Hutton), Corluka, Walker, Trippier and Aurier all trump him. Though when the tactics are to primarily sit back and expect our front four to defend more than they should attack, it's hardly a surprise most of them had poor games.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

If they were anonymous or knackered whose fault is that? I suggest they played like that because they have been taught to play like that. It may not have been his instructions on this day but it is his default position and therefore it is his squads default position. Spurs hardly made a forward pass in the first 30 minutes and yet you critisize one ot the worlds best attacking footballers for not being a defender. Son is knackered Kane is knackered and the reason is they spent most of their time running the full length of the pitch to defend. They wouldn't do that by choice they do it because the manager wants them to. You don't buy an F1 car then moan when it fouls the speed bumps in your road. If you put Kane Son and Bale on the pitch then you need to attack the opposition otherwise just play Sissoko in the number 9 position.

Son's and Hojbjerg are on Mourinho. Bale and Ndombele are on themselves.
We attacked against Burnley and Palace with similar lineups. They didn't even do the basics.
They'd improved dramatically over the course of this season and I don't think any of us expected that level of ****e.

Mourinho's done a lot wrong, but failing to put the effort in against Arsenal is unacceptable from any of our players.
Doherty got ripped to bits on the pitch and slaughtered off it. He played poorly, but there were worse offenders.

 

[remembercolinlee]

I don't think that he set the team out to play defensively, though.
They just ended up doing it, because some of the players were utterly anonymous.
Bale and Ndombele may as well have not turned up. They weren't trying to get on the ball and weren't tracking back.
I don't see how he could've predicted that and he was limited in his changes by the Son injury, which he has to take responsibility for.

To be honest if it was a one off then fair enough.

But it wasn't.

The Arsenal game was like...
Fulham (h)
Brighton (a)
Liverpool (h)
Man City (a)
Fulham (h)
Chelsea (h)
West Ham (a)

That's 8 out of the last 12 prem matches that we have done this.

You could go back to the Leicester and Wolves games over Christmas and it becomes 10 out of 15 matches.

He has been our manager for 79 matches and 16 months.

If he can not get the players to follow his instructions in 66% of the games then he should be sacked.

I suspect the truth is that the players are in conflict with him.

If that is the case they are disgraceful for downing tools cos it hurts us as fans but again...if that is the problem then the manager must go.

 

[paultheplug]

Wrong decisions are wrong decisions whether you win easily, win narrowly , draw, lose narrowly or lose badly. There should be no reasons or excuses for them with the technology now available. If they are not challenged on all wrong decisions they become the norm as we have seen. The PMGOL FA and premier league have to address this disgraceful situation.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

He's done this tactic in most of his games in charge though, especially against decent/ good opposition, so I don't really see why you'd feel he didn't do it yesterday. He takes the shackles off against the dross of the division but anyone roughly 10th or higher and we're back to sitting back for most of the game hoping Kane saves us.

There were a number of poor performers no doubt about that, Kane and Son (for the time he was on) were almost as bad as Ndombele and Bale, as was Reguilon and Doherty, the latter especially is the most inept RB I've seen at this club though. It's hard to remember a poorer RB in recent memory; Carr, Stalteri, Chimbonda, Hutton, Corluka, Walker, Trippier and Aurier all trump him. Though when the tactics are to primarily sit back and expect our front four to defend more than they should attack, it's hardly a surprise most of them had poor games.

I don't think he would've picked that team, if he intended to sit back.
The fullbacks and central midfield were too attack-minded for it.

 

[remembercolinlee]

I don't think he would've picked that team, if he intended to sit back.
The fullbacks and central midfield were too attack-minded for it.

In which case either:
1. He was tactically out thought by Arteta
Or
2. The players are ignoring his pre game and half time instructions

Either way he should be sacked

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

In which case either:
1. He was tactically out thought by Arteta
Or
2. The players are ignoring his pre game and half time instructions

Either way he should be sacked

Or 3. Some of the players had very poor games.

 

[remembercolinlee]

Or 3. Some of the players had very poor games.

Not a dig at you PNP but that performance was the norm not the exception...posted them earlier.
We have produced that type of performance 10 times in the last 15 Premier league games.

 

[Dier Hard]

I don't think he would've picked that team, if he intended to sit back.
The fullbacks and central midfield were too attack-minded for it.

I do, we've seen it all too often against similar calibre opposition to suggest otherwise.

Though I think he believes/ believed Bale and Ndombele's fitness was at a level where they could graft like Sissoko/ Bergwijn but as they possess more ability with the ball, he expected them to have more effect on the counter.

As for full backs, Reguilon practically starts all league games when fit, regardless of style or opposition.
Not sure the logic behind the Doherty over Aurier selection though, he's definitely not more attack minded whilst he can't defend either, can't really do anything to be honest. Honestly cannot believe how awful of a player he is.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Not a dig at you PNP but that performance was the norm not the exception...posted them earlier.
We have produced that type of performance 10 times in the last 15 Premier league games.

We've been poor in a lot of games and it's often been down to Mourinho's team selection and tactics.
I don't think that was the case yesterday.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Not sure the logic behind the Doherty over Aurier selection though, he's definitely not more attack minded whilst he can't defend either, can't really do anything to be honest. Honestly cannot believe how awful of a player he is.

Aurier's still not 100% and pulled up in his last appearance, IIRC.

 

[Dier Hard]

Aurier's still not 100% and pulled up in his last appearance, IIRC.

Then play Tanganga, or even Sissoko. Think I'd rather Dier there too.

EDIT: Could've taken Doherty off at HT too, Aurier was on the bench so he must have been available for at least 45 if not 100%.

 

[remembercolinlee]

We've been poor in a lot of games and it's often been down to Mourinho's team selection and tactics.
I don't think that was the case yesterday.

I ain't letting the players off...they were disgraceful they owe it to us to try their best every week but particularly in the NLD but JM is at least equally to blame imho.

Think I am so pissed off cos I so wanted to be proved wrong but that was just like groundhog day.

So can not wait for this farce to be over

 

[Dier Hard]

I think the absolute worst thing from yesterday for me is that I'm rarely going to be able to watch that Lamela goal too often because I'm not sitting through highlights of the game and even if I just want to watch the clip of the goal, it'll still remind me of a dross performance and result.

That's one of the best goals in Prem history in my opinion, not just NLD history. The sheer cheek along with skill to try that AND pull it off makes it so special, it has to be favourite for the Puskas award. Such a shame it was marred by a horrendous display and result.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

I disagree with this. My view of the first NLD was that it was a carbon copy of our approach yesterday. They dominated both games and we sat back for almost 90mins in both. The first ended in a 2-0 win because we'd only just started using Jose's 2009/10 Inter Milan gameplan, and no opposition side had sussed it out yet. Now they have, as it really isn't difficult to suss out and negate.

Add to that I think Arteta's team selection was far better yesterday than it was back in December. Cedric, Smith-Rowe and Odegaard all helped improve their performance and make them more of a threat.

Quite simply, no it wasn't

In the first game we were actively attacking them in midfield, with Hojbjerg and Sissoko pushing their midfield onto the backfoot which is why they had lots of the ball but nothing to do with it

Yesterday we weren't pushing them in midfield at all, we were retreating into our own half with the exact same approach that did us so well against palace, Wolves, Leicester etc etc which we were hoping had been consigned to the bin or, at the very least, was something we weren't going to do unless defending a lead with 15 minutes to go - not using as Plan A in a game that anyone with a crumb of understanding knows is one where some blood and thunder is necessary

 

[LockStock]

Do we actually think that Mourinho told the players not to press or play on the front foot? I don't buy that. Not with that line-up, If Sissoko and Aurier were on instead of Ndombele and Doherty, then maybe.

A very attack minded line-up was picked.

I'm not Mourinho fan boy, but surely the players have to take responsibility for how they play on the pitch.

That same team should have played better, regardless of what Mourinho said, or didn't say to them, imho.

This calamity was the work, or lack thereof, of the players as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Left on the Shelf]

Hojbjerg: just knackered or just not as good as we were thinking he was?

He's had more than a few off days for some weeks now, limited in his ambition and regularly losing position (not alone there).

I like the guy but he was one who definitely went AWOL yesterday.

Is it physical or mental fatigue?

As with Sonny, surely their medical stats are being monitored so carefully these days that any significant loss of capacity would be recognised.

And if those negative changes are ignored by JM and on field performance suffers then it's on him, surely and not the player.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Hojbjerg: just knackered or just not as good as we were thinking he was?

He's had more than a few off days for some weeks now, limited in his ambition and regularly losing position (not alone there).

I like the guy but he was one who definitely went AWOL yesterday.

Is it physical or mental fatigue?

As with Sonny, surely their medical stats are being monitored so carefully these days that any significant loss of capacity would be recognised.

And if those negative changes are ignored by JM and on field performance suffers then it's on him, surely and not the player.

I think Hojbjerg is quite overrated and have been saying so since the Chelsea defeat. Looks great in games we're dominating but at the end of the day he has the same passion as Winks with slightly more talent. Nothing more. Possibly one of the most positionally ill-disciplined players I have seen at the club.

The crux of the problem though is that we are relying on a midfield pivot which is pretty young and very inexperienced - both in the PL in general and as a partnership in particular. They have next to no understanding of each other's game, often operating in exactly the same area in games we are dominating or separated by 20 to 30 yards when we are stretched.

It also doesn't help that save for a number of flashes of inspiration, Tanguy still spends the majority of most games ambling around aimlessly. He is the quintessential definition of a luxury player. It gives Hojbjerg twice the workload, which increases once again if Doherty is playing.

However other than @PowerSpurs I haven't seen anyone else on here with a similar opinion. Hojbjerg is currently a slight upgrade on Winks when we needed a major improvement.

 

[gooner4ever]

Hojbjerg: just knackered or just not as good as we were thinking he was?

He's had more than a few off days for some weeks now, limited in his ambition and regularly losing position (not alone there).

I like the guy but he was one who definitely went AWOL yesterday.

Is it physical or mental fatigue?

As with Sonny, surely their medical stats are being monitored so carefully these days that any significant loss of capacity would be recognised.

And if those negative changes are ignored by JM and on field performance suffers then it's on him, surely and not the player.

Holdjberg was lucky not to get booked, but he wasn’t your worst player - which IMO was Bale as he was almost invisible.
Btw what is your view of Kane’s barge on Gabriel ?

Anyway as of yesterday 189 NLD games with 78 wins for Arsenal, 60 wins for Tottenham and 51 games drawn.

 

[BrunelGunner]

That might be true if we were playing on a level playing field or in a vacuum, but we're not.
We can't afford the same expenditure on the squad, we're playing more games than anyone in Europe and the reffing isn't remotely consistent.
It was costing us in big games when we were better than this.

I hear you. But I still believe you have enough quality in your squad to do better than this, and win games without needing VAR to outright determine the result. Contrary to how some of you may view your players, I still think this is one of your better squads in the PL era.

Kane and Son are two of the best attackers in Europe. Bale still has exceptional individual quality and can win you games. Lucas and Lamela offer good depth. Hojbjerg, Ndombele, Alli and Reguilon are classy players. Vinicius is a good back-up striker, better than many in the league (IMO). Your defence is a weak point, but I think they're capable of doing better than what they've shown.

Mourinho is a master at gaslighting and manipulation. He did the same thing at Man Utd, where he tried to convince everyone he had a subpar squad. When in reality his performances, squad management and results should have been better. So, with VAR being effective or not, he's underperforming right now.